Hollywood_North GT

Nobody's forcing you to read my comments, much less reply. You have a history of chasing my posts just to argue with me, so perhaps you should ask yourself just who you are defending with your "defensive" posts. Ford?

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: I don't hate Ford, I'm a Ford fan. But I'm not a demoninational brand thumper who sticks his head in the sand when anyone points out tough problems. I prefer to meet them head on in spirited debate. I believe in plain talk.

I also believe in tough love. Ford is in the mess they're in now because they PUT themselves there. But devotees like yourself want to blame everything else and talk about the few hits the company has had, rather than the voluminous misses - misses that have led the company into the situation it finds itself in today.

And even though things are getting better, it's happening far too slowly, and there is still much evidence of the "business as usual" mentality. Ford is still behind in interior quality, still behind in technology application, still behind in the attitude that customers come FIRST...and frankly, given the continued evidence of that "business as usual" mentality, they deserve to have their nose rubbed in it, cause it's the bottom of the ninth and the bases are loaded. If the message isn't made to sink in TODAY, there won't BE a tomorrow, and we won't have to worry about debating this anymore.

It doesn't matter if the guy who posted the letter that prompted this thread works for Ford or not. PAY ATTENTION to the overriding message: outside of our little group, the public at large no longer has much faith in Ford as a brand. His is but one voice of thousands upon thousands of similar opinions; the ones that say, "Eww, you bought a Ford?"

Look at the high quality and design efficiency of Ford's vehicles in the UK, and then ask youself why they are the number one selling brand in Great Britain, while U.S. market share is plummeting. Coincidence? I think not.

And that's a PRODUCT failure, friend...NOT a marketing failure. So stop kidding yourself. You can keep referencing the LS all you want, but I've got news for you - the LS was a good car, but it was not a great car; certainly not a class leader. What Ford needs to do right is not simply build cars that are "just as good" (that won't bring Toyota and Honda buyers back), it needs to build class leaders - "gotta have it" cars that make people stop and take notice, like the Edge - and then make bloody sure the cheap bits are all exorcised. It's the only way to keep this ship from sinking.

But feel free to continue rearranging deck chairs.

2005GTDELUXE

but what about all this (emoticon no pom poms for you-if there is one)

As part of a massive worldwide recall of nearly a million vehicles, Toyota is recalling 170,000 Priuses in the U.S.
The hybrid is the only American model impacted by the large recall, but it is significant. Priuses built between 2003 and 2005, the steering shaft assembly could become loose or even crack under certain conditions. Even though no incidents have been reported yet, this is a serious recall and we recommend Prius owners get their cars serviced at the dealership ASAP.
NEW October 24!
WASHINGTON (AP) — Toyota Motor said Tuesday it was recalling about 30,000 Scion tC sports coupes over concerns that the side air bags could inadvertently deploy if the door is slammed forcefully.
The recall affects about 20% of the tCs produced during the 2005 and 2006 model years, Toyota said.
The automaker said seat-mounted side air bags and side curtain air bags could deploy if the door on that side of the vehicle is closed forcefully while the ignition is on or within 90 seconds of when the ignition is turned off.
Toyota said it has received reports of 17 incidents in which the air bag deployed. No accidents, deaths or injuries have been reported.
Scion, Toyota's youth-oriented brand, will send recall notices to owners next month. Dealers will replace the side air bag sensors at no charge.

Hollywood_North GT

Ford and its enthusiast base will never fix Ford by pointing out Toyota's problems. Despite Toyota's recent recall issues, it's not having much, if any, impact on Toyota sales. Ford lost the perception battle a long time ago, and needs to focus now on product. Perception will then take care of itself.

So what I'm saying is, don't worry about Toyota...worry about Ford.

IWantMyNewGT

You must have got one of the GOOD ones. My '02 Jetta spent more time in the shop than in my driveway before I got rid of it after just a few months. I replaced it with an '02 Dakota which in 4 years never spent a day in the shop except for routine maintenance.

Evil_Capri

I agree 100%! However, I think the 'Business as Usual' mentality you mentioned is gone with Mulally. He seems to get it.

I'm not quite sure about your 'behind in technology application' statement. Are you referring to interior/cabin technology (ipod, blue tooth, on star, idrive, etc.) or drivertrain (engine/tranny combos, hybrids, flex-fuel, hydrogen, etc.) or global technology investment and rapid sharing of information through FMC worldwide . . . . or all the above? I think they have been behind in some applications, but I also think they have been at the forefront of others.

I think the biggest thing FMC has going for them is the growing momentum with the Five Hundred and Fusion. I think these two cars have aided in the turnaround or preception from a quality standpoint, and are the basis of continued turnaround.

I don't think FMC could have had a home-run even if they created the BEST car ever because of the preception the public has with FMC.

I said it before and I'll say it again FMC has ~18-24 months to make an impact and 'right the ship'. Focus on Product, Customer, Quality and there will be a future (albeit a smaller %, but greater capacity) with FMC.

Ramble over . . . .

Centurion96

Yes '97-'03, and when the Super Duty arrived in '98 every Ford truck forum I belonged to started calling them Stupid Duties and hated the look, almost everyone agreed that they were Dodge Ram knockoffs. This again supports my argument that Ford is a design follower. In September of '96 there were about 2 dozen Centurion 4 door Broncos sitting on showroom floors in Florida. They were not cheap, the C-150s were about $39K MSRP and the C-350s could go as high as $50K. Fords answer to the Suburban was then introduced and in less than 2 months all of those Centurions were sold. The Expedition was not what the truck buyer was expecting and once again Ford was targeting a different group of buyers, forgoing the loyal Ford truck owners who were looking for a Ford answer to the Suburban. Please note that GM upgraded the Suburban in '92 and the Excursion didn't show up until 2000. Had the Excursion been based on both a 150 and a 350 chassis we would probably still have Ford producing Excursions.

Only if you retract that last statement. You make it sound like the Explorer created the SUV market and the crossover market. Here are some facts that will support my argument that the Explorer was a day late and a dollar short. In addition to the three manufacturers I previously mentioned; Nissan introduced the Pathfinder in 1987, Toyota introduced the 4Runner in 1985, and Isusu introduced the Trooper in 1988. That is a total of 6 major truck manufacturers cranking out SUVs as fast as their little factories could produce them. There were hundreds of thousands of little SUVs out there before Ford introduced the Explorer.

I had one, or more correctly my wife bought one shortly before our marriage and my opinion is that it was a total POS. I personally feel that the damage it did to the Mustang image far outshown the fact that it kept the Mustang name alive. Half the parts were imported including the entire drive train on the 4 cylinder versions.

I have only been a member of this forum for a few weeks as I'm purchasing a new S197. I have been on truck forums for many years and all of my trucks for the last 20 years have been Fords. I don't get the opinion that BC is posting garbage, I've only read his responses in this thread but I agree with most of what he says. The truck forums are pretty much saying the same thing. I have pointed out that your statements about the Explorer were not based upon facts .

I have been doing all of my own repair work on my vehicles for the last 30 years once the warrantee expired. I can give you example after example of Fords "Better Ideas" that have fallen short or missed their mark completely. I have been very impressed with Fords 4.6 L engine but it has some poorly thought out design features as I just recently learned while wrenching on my wife's '98 Grand Marquis. From my experience, here are a few of Ford's Better Ideas; Why was it that during the 90s a 350 equiped GM pickup would get between 4 and 6 mph better than a similar equiped Ford 351 pickup? Why did Ford continue to use the 3 sheet tack welded drip molding on their trucks and vans (still use it on their vans) when the putty they used to waterproof these weld seams would dry out, crack, and leak causing a major source of rusting. Once again I go back to the Explorer, why did Ford not fix the harsh suspension in the Explorer but rather lowered the recommended tire pressure causing the tires to run hotter, lose tread, blow out thus causing the driver to lose control ending in a rollover. Granted the people that were complaining about the harsh suspension had no business buying these high CG vehicles in the first place, but Ford was specificly tageting that market, they would have been better off getting mini vans.
Finally since this is a Mustang forum, I would like to know why, when somebody ordered the '07 Mustang with the Premier Trim Package in either Parchment or Light Grey they ended up receiving the Sport Appearance Package in those colors. There has been no official response that I have seen to date from Ford explaining this one.

This may be a sacrilige but I owned a '65 Mustang when they first came out and they weren't god's gift to humanity. Yes they were cute but they were based on a Comet and had a harsh suspension that just never hooked up well in my opinion. The 289 was touchy and could be a bear to tune at times. I later sold it when I purchased a '68 Camaro and felt the '68 was a better designed, better handling car. Don't get me wrong, the '65 was cute and I had a few fond memories with it. That's one of the reasons I'm buying the '07, it's the first Mustang since my '65 that I have liked. I will overlook the fact that Ford chose a poorly designed interior for it, and I will enjoy it.

BB

Semper Fi

05fordgt

Bob, I did apologize about my Explorer statement. What else do you want me to say? . I only said about BC, as he says he loves Ford but what he posts on a Mustang/Ford site will draw ire from alot of people. It would be like one of us, who have a thing against an EVO, STI, or Z, post inflaming things about that car on an EVO or STI enthusiast site. If we did that, we would get alot of rebuttles. I don't like the EVO, but I won't go trolling on an EVO webforum just to trash them. Thats immature to do. And lastly, congrats about your purchase of a new Mustang. I love mine to death. Just do me a favor. I see you posted that the interior is poorly designed. What are the things you don't like? I personally don't have a problem with my interior. I dressed it up some, and like how it turned out. Good luck with your car, and post some pics when you get it.

Vermillion06

Yes, I'm defending Ford. Some people follow sports teams and are extremely loyal to them. I choose to be a fan of an organization that has provided me with tangible products that have served me well and provided me a lot of enjoyment, a company that in the automotive world, is part of my "home team".

I provide rebuttal to your posts because you have a history of time and time again bashing Ford and Ford products with unsubstantiated opinion. You constantly tell us how all things Ford suck and most of the time your opinion can be proven wrong, even though you wont accept it, even with photographic evidence!
Gee, you have a funny way of showing it. Your posts about Ford are almost always negative. In fact they sound exactly like the people on other non-Ford websites who are admittedly Anti-Ford. You could be posting about another manufacturer and find a way to work in a negative comment about Ford.
I'm not either. But when somebody posts something that I don't agree with I'm going to say something about it. I have never denied that Ford is having problems. The news is all around us. But you keep beating us over the head with them. You love repeating the problems.
Uh yeah, I guess that's why your telling me the following:
Ford executives have made mistakes, there's no denying that and we all know what they are. But saying that outside factors have not had an effect is ridiculous; there are more factors contributing to Ford's problems than just executives' mistakes. And to keep beating the same dead horse and reviewing and griping about their past mistakes is tiresome and does nothing constructive. It's destructive in that it's promoting the current negative perception of Ford. Why not focus on what works, and find out why it works and try to repeat that success?
Do you have any idea what it's like to work in a huge corporate environment? Do you know what its like to have to deal with layers of nearly a hundred years of accumulated bureaucracy? I do, and it's not
like Bill Ford can run out back to the shop behind his house and tell 1 guy building the cars to make a change to all cars before lunch time. They know they have problems, heck ,they have even the "Bold Moves" campaign publicizing them with videos. It just takes a huge bureaucracy some time to move.
Just like it didn't matter when Dan Rather presented unverifiable documents about Bush's military records? It was the overriding message that was important, right? We all know how well that turned out for Mr. Rather and CBS. But yeah , yeah, I KNOW FORD HAS A PERCEPTION PROBLEM! Posting about that stupid unverifiable rant doesn't tell anything I don't already know

And higher gas prices, and the end of the SUV fad evidenced in the decline of the SUV market industry-wide has nothing to do with the Explorer sales dropping and taking a big chunk of Ford marketshare with them ? Ford's American products just suck right? Yes they neglected the car side of the product line in the past but they've done away with the old Taurus and now have the Fusion and 500 and of course the Mustang on the car side. The Edge is also on the way.

Sez you. But if more people would have actually known that the LS existed and how good it was, it certainly would have improved sales.
It's not that simple. Ford could build the greatest cars in the world but that wouldn't change perception or the "imported = better" mentality over night. Constantly bringing up Ford's past mistakes and complaining about them won't either.

Zastava_101

There is nothing wrong with recalls. If cars have problems, I would rather have company fix those problems than ignoring them.

Centurion96

I take everything with a grain of salt. Your apology is and was accepted but you slipped another Explorer zinger in there and I couldn't resist. I've experienced quite a bit of trolling on other forums and I really didn't get that impression in this list. I feel there was some excessive use of pom poms but other than that BC was using the attached post to get his point across. As a new lister I based my observations on those posts in this list only, I realize that over longer periods of time members get to know one and other and develop opinions based on a members views and previous posts. From an outsiders point of view everything here looked quite civil, at least on the surface.

On the Mustang, thanks I'm looking forward to it. The interior is a bit spartan by todays standards. I've never been a fan of plastic parts that are made to look like metal. I don't like the headlight control nor do I like most of the other plastic controls. The placement of the tach and speedometer should have all been reversed, not just the GT500s. The last issue I had was trying to get a power passenger seat without having to pay for the unwanted electric mirror and heated seats. Heated sets are the last thing I need in Florida but due to previous medical problems, my wife finds the power seats much more comfortable. My wife's Grand Marquis has that funky power mirror which never seems to reduce the glare enough. I happen to like the old flip mirrors.

Anyway peace all. I'm waiting on my Premium '07 Torch Red GT Vert. with manual, tan interior, side impact airbags, 3L55, IUP, and cloth top.

BB

Semper Fi

Vermillion06

Ford has had it's share of innovative designs, but every manufacturer follows what's successful. That's why the Camaro came to be in the first place. Look at the Toyota Tundra and previous generation F150.
The Explorer was not the first "SUV" but the fact is, the Ford Explorer "has ranked as the top-selling SUV worldwide for the last decade-and-a-half". All the other manufacturers were trying to compete with it. Even though the entire SUV market is down, it's still the SUV that dominates.
The fact is, the Mustang II sold 400,000 units its first year, and four of the five years of the Mustang II are some of the highest sales years in Mustang history. Toyota liked it so much they made a Corolla liftback that copied its looks:
[

The 2.3L 4 cylinder engine was built in the US initially and then production moved to Brazil. The V6 was from Ford of Germany.

Centurion96

Sorry, didn't like either one, we can also add that since Chevy wants to make all their trucks look like Cadillacs, they can also be added to the list.

Just goes to show you, that you can fool all the people all the time. Actually the writer didn't state where that information was obtained but I'll acknowledge it until proven otherwise. My argument initially was that it did not start the SUV craze and I did provide facts to counter that statement. The most striking part of that article was that the real world gas mileage for the 2006 4x4 Explorer was worse than my 1996 6000 lb, 138" WB, 351 powered, C-150 Centurion 4-door 4x4 Bronco. I've got it beat by 1 MPH, not earth shattering but interesting.

Yes the Corolla liftback and the Cilica (sp) GT looked like mini mustangs. This model gained popularity due to the fact that it showed up right after the onset of the gas crisis in 1974. That was the reason my soon to be wife sold her '66 Tripower GTO and bought the Mustang (grumble grumble). Another case where you can fool all of the people all the time. It also showed up at or near the end of both the muscle car and pony car dominance. Sales for all of the previously mentioned cars dropped dramatically. That article also stated that the three top selling years for the Mustang were the first three. It didn't mention what the other production totals were for the remaining Mustang II years so they could have been substancially lower and we would still have a true statement. I can't remember the last time I saw a Mustang II on the road but I still see a lot of '60s pony cars on a weekly basis. For that matter I don't see a whole lot of late '70s car either. The late '70s saw a mass migration of car owners moving to imports, the under powered over weight Mustang II was just one nail in the coffin. But the girls loved them.

I would be careful about extreme loyalty, it can impair ones judgement, obscure the truth, induce unecessary anger, and can put one in a postion to be exploited by the powers that be.

BB

2005GTDELUXE

IMO none is needed, The current SAP is only available in Graphite and Parchment , leather not required, no IUP. The old SAP did not have any IUP....Now it is is PTP with color accent, or you can just get IUP no PTP and it's like the old SAP with black interior components, just no IUP. The SAP sport appeance package never had IUP. So FORD used all the colored interior components. It did not compromise the car in any way. Ireally love the CS look. Possibly FORD didn't need to spend money to make black interior copmonents for all the PTP cars as well, The PTP with color accent is availbale in 5 color packages. I'ts very different from the former 05 packages.

05fordgt

Hey Bob, what is the problem with being loyal to Ford? Heck, have you even seen my signature, I work at a Ford dealer, for pete's sake, so I am allowed to be loyal. I'm only 30, and have been doing this job for 10 years, at the SAME PLACE, and (god willing) will be doing this till I retire! I love my job, and couldn't even imagine selling imports! My parents are a Ford family, and so was my parents parents. My dad even has a Model T, and several Model A's. (hows that for loyal). If I sold imports, I would never sell any of my family's friends. They are all American car fans too.

There is nothing wrong with being loyal to a company, especially an American company. I say American Company, because I hear some people actually call Toyota an American company now that they build cars and trucks here. HELLO, the profits still head back overseas!!! Please don't tell myself, or Vermillion not to be loyal. Its our lives, (and my livelyhood), and we can do whatever we want.

Oh and by the way, the dash in the Mustang, its REAL Aluminum. Its coated so it won't fingerprint up, and be easier to keep clean. If you don't believe me, check the Edmunds link below, when they reviewed the car when it came out in 2005:

Edmunds Review 2005 Mustang

Evil_Capri

The 2.3 was manufactured in the USA. I think the 2.3 was based on the 2.0 Cortina engine, but they didn't share any components.

I think you are speaking of the 1600cc British built engine from the Pinto, but that engine never was in the II.

Centurion96

Sorry for the misunderstanding, I was misquoted, I never said it was not good to be loyal, nor was I refering to the loyalty an employee has for his employer as long as it doesn't become obsessive. I was refering to the statement "extremely loyal", this congers up pictures of obsessiveness when I hear it. Extreme loyalty can cause one to not hear the other side of the story, or make one look down upon others of different loyalties. We only have to look to Kosavo, Iraq, Afganistan and most of the sub-Saharan African Continent to see what happens when loyalties become extreme and cross over to obsession. Maybe a good rousing fight amoungst English soccer fans would have been a better analogy. Outside of God, Country, Family and the Marine Corps, all of my other loyalties are written in the sand and can change with the prevailing winds. I rationalize all of my loyalties and balance them with temperence. Vietnam took a lot of the fight out of me and taught me that not eveything is as it appears. It also taught me that, people, nations, organizations (political and corporate) and religions have to earn my trust and loyalty, It is not something I pass out freely to everyone.


Again sorry I was not refering to the IUP but rather the funny looking AC registers, I thought they were plastic. I don't believe my '65 had registers that looked like that.

BB

Centurion96

From the photographs I have seen, when several buyers ordered the PTP with the IUP in parchment or grey, the got dark charcoal seats and the color coordinated side panels, dash and carpets. Yet the same order for PTP in Red and Chamois got dark charcoal side panels, carpets and dash with the color coordinated seats. It didn't make any sense since Ford has all of the components to make the dark charcoal surrounds and color coordinated seat for all colors. The people who ordered this package expected to get the PTP color scheme but got the SAP color scheme. I was told that the dealers double checked their order forms but the orders were not coming in as expected.

There has been no word that I have heard as to whether this was an ordering problem or a computer problem at the factory.


BB

Hollywood_North GT

The only substantiation I need is reflected in Ford's plummeting market share. Your referenced quotes above prove nothing other than that you like to rearrange deck chairs.

Better take a closer look there, Sherlock. Speaking of being "wrong." But then again, you're a master of siphoning out my "plain talk," calling it negativity, and ignoring the many positive things I have said about Ford products.

Dang right, and I'll keep pointing them out until this company either turns the corner or goes under. Because NOW is when this company needs to hear it...not after they're dead and everyone is offering 20/20 "if only" hindsight.

Ah, yeah, right. I guess you missed the story I posted about FIVE BRAND NEW MUSTANGS IN A ROW THAT WOULDN'T START ON THE LOT.

Now, what was that you were saying about wondering where all these "negative perceptions" and "Eww, you bought a Ford" remarks come from?

Yeah, sure, it's tough to turn things around in a corporate giant like Ford. The point is they never should have had to turn things around to begin with. They let things slide for the better part of three decades. That's not the customer's fault, nor the Japanese's fault, that's FORD'S fault!

And "Bold Moves" - as interesting as it is - is a marketing gimmick. Did you watch the latest installment? Talk about shameless emotional manipulation. Ford needs product, not PR. You're doing the company a disservice by stating otherwise; it's erroneous.

You don't even want to go there with me. I think the public has finally wised up to these crooks, and next week, you'll see that manifest. Not that the alternative is much better, frankly.

Finally some honesty in all that winding diatribe.


Still blaming public perception, huh? Let's hope Ford Motor Co. isn't still laboring under that delusion, or all I can say is: god help them.

Actually, it is.

Not overnight. But a constant dedication to uncompromising products would - over a few years - change that perception in a way that all the "clever" marketing campaigns in the world will not. Today's buyers are WAY too sophisticated for that.

Well, most of them, anyway.

Of course it will. Complaints translate into lost sales. Lost sales translate into sitting up and taking notice.

DPDIAMOND44P

My toy is my MUSTANG GT/CS.... So take that!!!!!

2005GTDELUXE

I understand and saw everyones posts, the MY07 order guide never confirmed that the PTP with color accent will include black interior components for all the PTP interiors.
The option that clearly stated black interior components at the time was the new SAP with color offered in Graphite and Parchment-the no IUP dress up was now available with color if desired.
I believe FORD possibly made the decision to include the red and chamois PTP with black interior components because of those specific leather colors and how they look with black carpet, etc.. the rest would include colored interior components, and fit best in those colors.
FORD did a good job with all the choices. It's unfortunate that people including myself thought that some interiors were going to look completely different that they came out, but now after seeing I clearly understand the right interior components to go with the right seat and carpet and door panel and front dash colors.