http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/arti...G/60210005/1111

Very interesting [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/33.gif[/img]

Could have a lawsuit on half a million vehciles, and be able to ban them altogether. I'm curious as to why they waited so long, building a case maybe?

This is why I have no idea how any Chineese car could ever be sold in the US, its from a comunist country that simply coppied and stole everything to make thier cars. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/dunno.gif[/img]

 

If I'm not mistaken, Ford licensed some of the Toyota hybrid technology for the Escape hybrid. I wonder if the lawsuit could include eventually include Ford's hybrids?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TomServo92 @ February 11, 2006, 12:36 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
If I'm not mistaken, Ford licensed some of the Toyota hybrid technology for the Escape hybrid. I wonder if the lawsuit could include eventually include Ford's hybrids?
[/b][/quote]

I think they got the patent for the Atkins Cycle engine from Toyota. I believe also that Toy got some safety technology from Ford in the deal. I think Toy had the pattent on the engine type just like Mazda has it on the Miller Cycle and Wankel. At one point Ford was going after MB for the 3V tech Ford had developed years ago(but never used of course), and it what has moved MB away from it to the DOHC motor. From what I gather it has to do with the starter cycle/motor switching in the CVT they are arguing about.

When I worked at Toyota briefly, most of the salespeople spout that Toyota builds Fords hybrids, and I mean they believe it.

 

I would love to see Toyota lose this.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(AnotherMustangMan @ February 11, 2006, 12:45 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
I would love to see Toyota lose this.
[/b][/quote]

Why, are you some sort of toyota-phobe? Why don't you just get over the fact that Toy's are the best cars? [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/banana.gif[/img]

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(StangenSteven @ February 11, 2006, 11:56 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
Why, are you some sort of toyota-phobe? Why don't you just get over the fact that Toy's are the best cars? [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/banana.gif[/img]
[/b][/quote]

Best quality, but not best overall.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Red Star @ February 12, 2006, 1:35 AM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
Best quality, but not best overall.
[/b][/quote]

My point is that people, such as AnotherMustangMan, seem to want Toyota to crash and burn by internal self destruction. A victory against Toyota would be much more satisfying if created by some competitive action on Ford's part. For example, Ford opens their own gas stations that sell--and guarantee the availability of--E-85 fuel. And, the intro of these stations is timed with the intro of a new flex fuel car that is both fuel efficient **and** nice looking. We want to have a reason to buy a Ford, but we must be able to feel good about the purchase also.

You don't see Google sitting around hoping Microsoft will suffer from an anti-trust lawsuit. Rather, Google is out there creating their future. Innovating. We need Ford to start something like that. Ford needs to stop blaming the unions (even though employee compensation is part of the problem and must be dealt with). Whining and asking the Fed for a bail out is quite unbecoming...and un-American.

Just for the record...I don't own a Toyota, but I don't fault those who do. Thoughts anyone?

 

Or maybe I just resent the fact that Japan subsidizes health care so Toyota doesn't have to, leaving our companies at a $1,000+ disadvantage per car, effectively coming up a bit short of "free market." Do you really think Toyota is just doing something magical? Yeah they've got more efficient, precise, automated plants than the big three does...because (1) they can afford them and (2) because they dont have a union threatening to strangle the company every time they decrease worker dependence.

Second, I dont hope Toyota loses this so I have a reason to buy a Ford, I hope Toyota loses this so that our companies can try to get back on their feet, and in the long run I still hold out hope that our trade deficit will stop doubling. And just for the record, I don't fault Toyota owners either.


Oh, and you can bet Google would have a collective orgasm if Microsoft took a legal hit.

 

Toyota company does make me mad because they gloat about how great they are and they fail to mention the reasons that Dave(AnotherMustangman) stated.

Their arrogance is really annoying.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(AnotherMustangMan @ February 12, 2006, 10:20 AM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
Or maybe I just resent the fact that Japan subsidizes health care so Toyota doesn't have to, leaving our companies at a $1,000+ disadvantage per car, effectively coming up a bit short of "free market." Do you really think Toyota is just doing something magical? Yeah they've got more efficient, precise, automated plants than the big three does...because (1) they can afford them and (2) because they dont have a union threatening to strangle the company every time they decrease worker dependence.

Second, I dont hope Toyota loses this so I have a reason to buy a Ford, I hope Toyota loses this so that our companies can try to get back on their feet, and in the long run I still hold out hope that our trade deficit will stop doubling. And just for the record, I don't fault Toyota owners either.
Oh, and you can bet Google would have a collective orgasm if Microsoft took a legal hit.
[/b][/quote]

And your suggestion is...? Again, resentment will not get Ford, or the others, out of their predicament. I need to hear suggestions, ideas, and so forth, not whiny resentment.

 

Well, as I already said. "I hope Toyota loses this so that our companies can try to get back on their feet." Whiny and resentful if you say so.

Furthermore, I actually wrote a pretty whiny column about this whole subject and posted it here. (complete with suggestions!!!) Do a search for "big three" and give it a read. My miracle cure is in the last few paragraphs.

Here, I dug it up for you: http://forums.bradbarnett.net/index.php?sh...78&hl=big+three

 

I really hope this story gets out to more people. When the story got out that Ford had licensed some hybrid patents from Toyota ahead of time in order avoid any patent infringement trouble, the import fanboys twisted this to say that Ford couldn't develop its own hybrid system, which is untrue.

Now the great and "innovative" Toyota is being taken to court for infringing on another company's hybrid technology. Just goes to show that Toyota isn't the "can do no wrong" company import fans make it out to be.

 

Are you kidding? How could the story get out to anyone. What with Motor Trend and Car and Driver paying for the privelege to lick Toy's nuts, no one will find out about this unless they're looking for it.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(StangenSteven @ February 12, 2006, 2:32 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
And your suggestion is...? Again, resentment will not get Ford, or the others, out of their predicament. I need to hear suggestions, ideas, and so forth, not whiny resentment.
[/b][/quote]

Make the playing field fair, tarriff them $5000 per car. They 'ghost tarriff' our products in Japan by manipulating the yen/dollar and tweaking other importation processes. Stop subsidising plants in the US with tax dollars and stop the 'temp' worker nonsense. Make it more public the lack of less then stellar emissions ratings and make all recalls public like American makers do. Toyota is not as bad as Honda though at renameing recals.

 

^ Good suggestions all.

 

By sheer coincidence, read this article about the artificial yen/dollar ratio that came out today. Obviously Japan knows its doing this, so why not push for a tarriff instead of hoping Japan will 'help' us [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rolleyes.gif[/img] :

COMMENT

<span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%">Toyota should push for stronger yen
Currency imbalance could be a problem in the long run</span>

James B. Treece
Automotive News / February 13, 2006 - 6:00 am


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Advertisement


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TOKYO -- If the crises at General Motors and Ford Motor Co. lead to an anti-Japanese political backlash, it will be Toyota Motor Corp.'s fault.

I don't want to see a backlash, so I offer Toyota this advice: Lobby the Japanese government to push the yen up.

Before I go any farther, let's be clear about one thing. The Japanese carmakers have earned, not stolen, their sales gains. Put simply, Toyota is a better carmaker. That is why it is winning in the marketplace. The Michigan-based auto industry should stop wringing its hands and get to work if it wants to change that.

That said, politicians will head for the microphones if pensioners in key states such as Florida and Arizona lose their health benefits. Congress will start looking for villains.

Even if Toyota isn't targeted directly, it will be caught in the crossfire. The prudent course for Toyota goes beyond trying to wrap itself in the American flag, as it has been doing.



Toyota-made trade gap
After all, the $46.88 billion U.S.-Japan automotive trade imbalance is overwhelmingly Toyota's doing.

Last year, Toyota exported 867,196 cars and trucks to the United States. That was a smidgen less than all other Japanese carmakers combined. In dollar terms, Toyota's impact is even greater.

Lexus' 241,426 exports tilt the trade gap more than Mazda's 258,339.

Remember: To politicians, "trade gap" is an economist's euphemism for "lost jobs."

Toyota declares itself an American company because 61.3 percent of the vehicles it sold in the United States last year were built in North America. Toyota's localization ratio, as it is known, has never reached 64 percent.

Compared with other major Japanese automakers' performances, Toyota's localization is as underpowered as a four-cylinder Tundra pickup. Consider the localization ratios of other Japanese makers: Mitsubishi, 65.0 percent; Nissan, 79.1 percent; Honda, 79.8 percent.

Nissan and Honda can claim to be red, white and blue. Toyota is just red and white.

Is the yen being kept weak to give the Japanese industry an advantage? Ford Motor CEO Bill Ford, General Motors CEO Rick Wagoner and Chrysler group CEO Tom LaSorda say yes. Toyota Motor Sales U.S.A. boss Jim Press vehemently denies that the Japanese government is manipulating the yen today. He has a Japanese-style selective memory of history.

In 2003, the yen and the euro began to rise naturally against the dollar. The Japanese government stepped in. It spent a mind-boggling $187 billion (yes, with a "b") that year to keep the yen from rising as much as the euro.

So Japan is no stranger to currency manipulation. If it wanted a stronger yen, it could get it.


1995: U.S. Toyotas to Japan
Currency rates matter. Consider 1995.

That's when the dollar fell to a record low of 79 yen. (It's now back up around 115 yen. It spent most of 2005 around 120 yen.) That currency swing had a dramatic impact on U.S.-Japan automotive trade.

When 110 yen bought a dollar, a $20,000 Ford sold in Japan for 2.2 million yen. When it took only 80 yen to buy a dollar, Ford could sell the same car, with no change in features or profit margin, for 1.6 million yen.

Import prices plunged. And, suddenly, Japanese consumers rushed to buy Fords, Opels, Jeeps and even so-called reimports of made-in-America Hondas and Toyotas. Tracking the yen, sales of import cars in Japan soared to a record 430,000 in 1996 from about 300,000 in 1994.

In 1996, 31,619 built-in-America Toyotas were sold in Japan.

But the dollar rebounded to more than 100 yen, and the import boom sputtered. Between 1998 and 2005, imports have held steady at around 260,000 to 280,000 a year. Last year, Toyota imported no vehicles to Japan from North America.


Try $1 = 100 yen
Toyota may or may not have the political clout to get the Japanese government to intervene in currency markets. But even if Toyota cannot dictate the currency rate it wants, the carmaker could announce that it would prefer to see the dollar drop to, say, 100 yen. Currency traders would notice and start pushing the yen lower.

Yes, Toyota's profits would suffer, but it would still be comfortably in the black. And there would be a slew of other benefits for Toyota from a higher yen.

At the very least, it would shut up the Detroit executives who keep pointing to the yen's artificially induced weakness.

Toyota's claim to American citizenship currently is debatable. Imagine how much stronger it would be if Toyota could say that it was hiring American workers to build cars for sale in Japan. It happened before. It could happen again, with the right dollar-yen exchange rate.

 

Great article, thanks for posting it. What cracks me up though is that if a politician actually moved for a tariff, everyone and there mother would whine about it being a violation of free trade, yet they don't realize its already being violated to the advantage of everyone but us.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(StangenSteven @ February 12, 2006, 2:32 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
And your suggestion is...? Again, resentment will not get Ford, or the others, out of their predicament. I need to hear suggestions, ideas, and so forth, not whiny resentment.
[/b][/quote]

Wow. Not a bad article. Where are you learning your Econ? I'm impressed.

 

Hey, thanks. And I pick up what I can from listening to my dad complain to my mom. Who knows, maybe Ill take a few classes in the subject when I get to college.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(AnotherMustangMan @ February 13, 2006, 5:37 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
Great article, thanks for posting it. What cracks me up though is that if a politician actually moved for a tariff, everyone and there mother would whine about it being a violation of free trade, yet they don't realize its already being violated to the advantage of everyone but us.
[/b][/quote]

As for the yen/dollar bs-for our product there(which was hot at one time), its like buying a Camry here for $43000.

As for the situation and fixing it......Problem is, politicians take money from companies like Toyota(any company really) to sell out thier country. A few bucks from them and they can buy tax loopholes, zoning changes, labor law manipulation, keep out unions(or keep unions IN), get money to build plants, etc. And it looks good because 'jobs' are created. Without campaign reform using only tax dollars, you can buy anything from a politician. What do they care? The money is safe in thier offshore accounts, and they won't see the world completely fall apart in thier lifetime. It takes something like the media to bring this to light to make it become an issue, its amazing how many things politicans try to 'fix' when they created the problem to start with, depending on what issue is 'hip' in the media at the time. Talk about job security.

But the media has to also consider its advertising budget. Its appalling, but almost every problem could be solved instantly in this country with a few selfless politicians, considering 60% of tax dollars are thrown in the garbage(or deep pockets) altogether. We did darn well in the past with NO income tax. The real kicker is, they take in crooked money to get elected, so they are blackmailed before the election is even held. Round and round we go. When being a politician isn't a get-rich-quick ('quick' - but without term limits you can make a lifetime out of it) job, there's a chance for change, but I digress. But until they feel like policing themselves, good luck.

The signifigance of this lawsuit and patent infringement hearing, it can throw a wrench in the works skipping congress altogether. It's one of those things that could be interesting or amount to nothing. The only thing that makes me interested is how long they waited to put this whole thing together. I would imagine it is to make sure there was something to press, it aint cheap taking toyota to court(they just initiated a lawsuit as well).