Chrysler Development Chief Slags the Mustang
Needs to be more Astony
Joined: October 4, 2004
Posts: 8,610
Likes: 5
From: Volo, IL
I think the point of the Civic *** IRS comment was that an IRS need not cost $5 grand extra over a buggy axle rear, as Ford laughingly tried to imply at various points. Perhaps a Mazda Miata or RX-8, or Nissan 350Z would make that point slightly better in that they are all RWD too, roughly around the Mustangs price points and all have very modern and effective IRS systems with the former two having even more effective multilink (twin A arm?) front suspensions, forged aluminum in the RX-8s case.
The true extra costs probably would have been well under $1K, maybe more like $500, as indicated by the "99 Cobra with its admittedly cobbled together system or hinted at by that Ford questionnaire that circulated around a few months back. Both the lively axle and IRS have their positives and negatives, often related to specific buyer needs (low budget cruiser, drag racer, road racer, tourer). I have the impression that the S197 development program got a bit out of hand, over budget and off schedule, and it was more *****rdliness than anything else that drove the live axle only decision -- and perhaps a lack of direct competition too, a situation that will be very different very shortly. My hope is that Ford will, under pressure from intense competition, will be forced to finally release an IRS option even if a higher engineering sense of overall driving excellence didn't seem to carry the day over the lure of easy immediate profits.
In any case, it will really take some head-to-head testing between the Camaro, Challenger and Stang to really assess the overall performance of their respective suspension systems, both the more easily measured and attained quantitative aspects (skidpad numbers) and more challenging qualitative aspects (feedback, control, compliance and composure over various roads).
The true extra costs probably would have been well under $1K, maybe more like $500, as indicated by the "99 Cobra with its admittedly cobbled together system or hinted at by that Ford questionnaire that circulated around a few months back. Both the lively axle and IRS have their positives and negatives, often related to specific buyer needs (low budget cruiser, drag racer, road racer, tourer). I have the impression that the S197 development program got a bit out of hand, over budget and off schedule, and it was more *****rdliness than anything else that drove the live axle only decision -- and perhaps a lack of direct competition too, a situation that will be very different very shortly. My hope is that Ford will, under pressure from intense competition, will be forced to finally release an IRS option even if a higher engineering sense of overall driving excellence didn't seem to carry the day over the lure of easy immediate profits.
In any case, it will really take some head-to-head testing between the Camaro, Challenger and Stang to really assess the overall performance of their respective suspension systems, both the more easily measured and attained quantitative aspects (skidpad numbers) and more challenging qualitative aspects (feedback, control, compliance and composure over various roads).
Cobra Member
Joined: June 25, 2004
Posts: 1,076
Likes: 0
From: Ohio
The new Challenger looks sharp! But, I would never buy a Chrysler or Dodge. My Boss has had his 300C in the shop at least 9 times.
He said he will eventually sell it, and buy the new Lincoln MKS.
He said he will eventually sell it, and buy the new Lincoln MKS.
Cobra Member
Joined: May 16, 2006
Posts: 1,322
Likes: 0
From: NV
Okay, so the Challenger has IRS. We all know that IRS cures cancer, stops global warming and brings world peace.
It is unfortunate however, that the Challenger weighs 4140 lbs (or about 2 Miatas).
The full size sedan curb weight will likely offset any advantage the Challenger has over a even a lowly Mustang GT, with it's caveman live axle that causes every Mustang ever made (except for the IRS equipped Cobras, of course) to fly off the roadway at any speed over 5 mph, flip multiple times, land on its roof and explode, killing all occupants and contributing greenhouse gasses to cause even more global warming.
It is unfortunate however, that the Challenger weighs 4140 lbs (or about 2 Miatas). The full size sedan curb weight will likely offset any advantage the Challenger has over a even a lowly Mustang GT, with it's caveman live axle that causes every Mustang ever made (except for the IRS equipped Cobras, of course) to fly off the roadway at any speed over 5 mph, flip multiple times, land on its roof and explode, killing all occupants and contributing greenhouse gasses to cause even more global warming.
Cobra Member
Joined: October 27, 2007
Posts: 1,380
Likes: 0
Cobra Member
Joined: October 27, 2007
Posts: 1,380
Likes: 0
Okay, so the Challenger has IRS. We all know that IRS cures cancer, stops global warming and brings world peace. It is unfortunate however, that the Challenger weighs 4140 lbs (or about 2 Miatas).
The full size sedan curb weight will likely offset any advantage the Challenger has over a even a lowly Mustang GT, with it's caveman live axle that causes every Mustang ever made (except for the IRS equipped Cobras, of course) to fly off the roadway at any speed over 5 mph, flip multiple times, land on its roof and explode, killing all occupants and contributing greenhouse gasses to cause even more global warming.
It is unfortunate however, that the Challenger weighs 4140 lbs (or about 2 Miatas). The full size sedan curb weight will likely offset any advantage the Challenger has over a even a lowly Mustang GT, with it's caveman live axle that causes every Mustang ever made (except for the IRS equipped Cobras, of course) to fly off the roadway at any speed over 5 mph, flip multiple times, land on its roof and explode, killing all occupants and contributing greenhouse gasses to cause even more global warming.
Cobra Member
Joined: October 27, 2007
Posts: 1,380
Likes: 0
I think the point of the Civic *** IRS comment was that an IRS need not cost $5 grand extra over a buggy axle rear, as Ford laughingly tried to imply at various points. Perhaps a Mazda Miata or RX-8, or Nissan 350Z would make that point slightly better in that they are all RWD too, roughly around the Mustangs price points and all have very modern and effective IRS systems with the former two having even more effective multilink (twin A arm?) front suspensions, forged aluminum in the RX-8s case.
The true extra costs probably would have been well under $1K, maybe more like $500, as indicated by the "99 Cobra with its admittedly cobbled together system or hinted at by that Ford questionnaire that circulated around a few months back. Both the lively axle and IRS have their positives and negatives, often related to specific buyer needs (low budget cruiser, drag racer, road racer, tourer). I have the impression that the S197 development program got a bit out of hand, over budget and off schedule, and it was more *****rdliness than anything else that drove the live axle only decision -- and perhaps a lack of direct competition too, a situation that will be very different very shortly. My hope is that Ford will, under pressure from intense competition, will be forced to finally release an IRS option even if a higher engineering sense of overall driving excellence didn't seem to carry the day over the lure of easy immediate profits.
In any case, it will really take some head-to-head testing between the Camaro, Challenger and Stang to really assess the overall performance of their respective suspension systems, both the more easily measured and attained quantitative aspects (skidpad numbers) and more challenging qualitative aspects (feedback, control, compliance and composure over various roads).
The true extra costs probably would have been well under $1K, maybe more like $500, as indicated by the "99 Cobra with its admittedly cobbled together system or hinted at by that Ford questionnaire that circulated around a few months back. Both the lively axle and IRS have their positives and negatives, often related to specific buyer needs (low budget cruiser, drag racer, road racer, tourer). I have the impression that the S197 development program got a bit out of hand, over budget and off schedule, and it was more *****rdliness than anything else that drove the live axle only decision -- and perhaps a lack of direct competition too, a situation that will be very different very shortly. My hope is that Ford will, under pressure from intense competition, will be forced to finally release an IRS option even if a higher engineering sense of overall driving excellence didn't seem to carry the day over the lure of easy immediate profits.
In any case, it will really take some head-to-head testing between the Camaro, Challenger and Stang to really assess the overall performance of their respective suspension systems, both the more easily measured and attained quantitative aspects (skidpad numbers) and more challenging qualitative aspects (feedback, control, compliance and composure over various roads).
Team Mustang Source
Joined: June 19, 2004
Posts: 6,840
Likes: 2
From: Phoenixville, PA
, but was taken care of from Saleen. Others are using the Fays2 setup. I too am looking into his company's as the kit is less than $700, and they don't use the diff cover as a mounting point. Something you may want to look into.
Thread Starter
Closet American
Joined: July 17, 2005
Posts: 5,851
Likes: 1
From: Vancouver, BC (Hollywood North)
Quote:
"Frankly, we'd rather run like a thoroughbred than ride like a pony," Chrysler product development chief Frank Klegon told an audience during the SRT8's roll-out, bragging that the vehicle is the only car in its class with a modern five-link independent rear suspension
""in it's class"...
Since when is a Civic in the same class as the Mustang and Challenger?
"Frankly, we'd rather run like a thoroughbred than ride like a pony," Chrysler product development chief Frank Klegon told an audience during the SRT8's roll-out, bragging that the vehicle is the only car in its class with a modern five-link independent rear suspension
""in it's class"...
Since when is a Civic in the same class as the Mustang and Challenger?
Thread Starter
Closet American
Joined: July 17, 2005
Posts: 5,851
Likes: 1
From: Vancouver, BC (Hollywood North)
Thread Starter
Closet American
Joined: July 17, 2005
Posts: 5,851
Likes: 1
From: Vancouver, BC (Hollywood North)
Okay, so the Challenger has IRS. We all know that IRS cures cancer, stops global warming and brings world peace. It is unfortunate however, that the Challenger weighs 4140 lbs (or about 2 Miatas).
The full size sedan curb weight will likely offset any advantage the Challenger has over a even a lowly Mustang GT, with it's caveman live axle that causes every Mustang ever made (except for the IRS equipped Cobras, of course) to fly off the roadway at any speed over 5 mph, flip multiple times, land on its roof and explode, killing all occupants and contributing greenhouse gasses to cause even more global warming.
It is unfortunate however, that the Challenger weighs 4140 lbs (or about 2 Miatas). The full size sedan curb weight will likely offset any advantage the Challenger has over a even a lowly Mustang GT, with it's caveman live axle that causes every Mustang ever made (except for the IRS equipped Cobras, of course) to fly off the roadway at any speed over 5 mph, flip multiple times, land on its roof and explode, killing all occupants and contributing greenhouse gasses to cause even more global warming.
Thread Starter
Closet American
Joined: July 17, 2005
Posts: 5,851
Likes: 1
From: Vancouver, BC (Hollywood North)
Thread Starter
Closet American
Joined: July 17, 2005
Posts: 5,851
Likes: 1
From: Vancouver, BC (Hollywood North)
On the other hand, when you take a corner a little too fast and the tail slides out a bit - then snaps back in - ya gotta love that! I just don't do it on broken pavement.
FR500 Member
Joined: August 15, 2005
Posts: 3,084
Likes: 0
From: Honolulu
... and the IRS/SRA debate continues.
(need a "beat a dead horse" smiley )
I want to wait and see what the "final numbers" are once the Challengers start making their way into the hands of the buying public. Don't see anything wrong with a little chest thumping. Personally, I think the Mustang will still have the edge by virtue of its lighter weight - GT500 included. If not, it should give Ford incentive to improve the next version of the Mustang.
(need a "beat a dead horse" smiley )I want to wait and see what the "final numbers" are once the Challengers start making their way into the hands of the buying public. Don't see anything wrong with a little chest thumping. Personally, I think the Mustang will still have the edge by virtue of its lighter weight - GT500 included. If not, it should give Ford incentive to improve the next version of the Mustang.