TomServo92

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/02/04/d...brid-pony-car/

The idea of a hybrid Camaro is interesting but this quote is what caught my eye:

I just can't see it being a success if it's that expensive.

StangPower05

Wow! I wonder what the sticker is going to be know??

ScottyBoy302

Son of a *****.

MARZ

As much as a 'Vette?! Ouch!

instigator311

If that's the case, then I would think they would just be releasing it as a low production halo car like the Challenger was originally rumored to be. However, nothing to my knowledge atleast has been stated about that.

Hollywood_North GT

Don't forget that this same scenario will impact the 2010 V8 Mustang, too.

Hollywood_North GT

Re-reading that article, there's a lot of things that don't make sense...or add up. Makes me wonder if there is another agenda at work releasing this info.

bob

Yeah GM is gonna have a tough time with the F5 methinks, with the gutting of the other zeta cars and canadian production site, but Mr. Settlemire has said Oshuwa (sp?) is a flex plant and that nobody on the outside realy knows the actual picture.

On the other hand, Mustang has been a good sales success (costs of engineering and equipment having been paid for or mostly paid for) and is built in the US of A, both of which paint a rosier picture in terms of profit margin.

Hollywood_North GT

I wouldn't say that. The 2010 RWD V8 Mustang will be plagued with all the same problems as GM with the hi-po Camaro.

bob

'10 is the new chassis? I thought the '10 model was just a refresh?

Hollywood_North GT

It is just a refresh - but a significant one with supposedly increased power.

bob

I'd still have to say Mustang will have some inherent cost advantages using the S197 vs. the all new canadian built Camaro.

I've said it before, Mustang was designed to make a viable business case with only 80k units a year and up until now, its been a major success (and by Ford's own admission a cash cow). I figure alot of the engineering and manufacturing costs have been paid for and despite the sheetmetal, interior and drivetrain upgrades, I still see Mustang being in a better position than Camaro profit wise.

Boomer

Well the D2C has been around for a bit, and Zeta was suppose to share across multiple cars (that got the axe)

So that could drive up the price as well on the Camaro,
where the stang has at this point probably paid off its chassis. (this may or may not be true)

jsaylor

Actually, no it wont. In several respects we already know enough about the upcoming Mustang to know that it will avoid some of the Camaro's shortfalls completely.

First it is worth noting that several people seem to think that the problems with Zeta in general have to do with that platform being rwd. In reality, the problem is in how GM has executed the platform itself and in particular powertrain choices for that platform, not the drive wheels.

Effectively GM's strategy with Zeta involves a couple of V6 engines and a whole lot of LSX hardware. And since this is a relatively large and heavy platform which, by all appearances, doesn't possess the capability to shrink much if any below Camaro size even in 2-door trim that isn't good news. If this were a large fwd platform slated to use the same basic engines choices in a similar variety of offerings GM would be in just as much trouble.

Also, while people often laud the mpg prowess of the LS series V8's, the reality is that technology is now leaving them behind with DI DOHC V8's from companies like Lexus proving that there are better ways to knock down high hp numbers and great fuel economy. (380hp and fuel economy that rivals more than a few mid-size V6 sedans seems pretty impressive to me) While the V6 engines in these cars are certain to perform a little better every Zeta car the more fuel efficient V6 models are likely to be a bit overwhelmed by Zeta's weight in most applications, and no Zeta car V6 or otherwise should be expected to be any better than a wash against CAFE numbers at best.

The unfortunate reality for GM is that there exists no apparent plans for any alternative to the above engines....no TTV6 V8 alternative or higher mileage, DI, DOHC V8 to offset the poor fuel economy of the rest of the lineup.....nada. You might see a DI LSX V8 but at this juncture that is likely akin to taking a whiz on a spark plug...a bit desperate and likely nearly pointless. I don't think anybody here would seriously expect the same to manage both 24mpg hwy (epa rating, not cafe) and 380hp under the hood of a 4500lb luxury sedan. On the flip side, given the apparent stats of Ford's rumoured 5.0L V8 you might see exactly that since design, fuel delivery system, and power output are all very similar to what Lexus uses.

Even worse, GM's front drive crop isn't exactly poised to help offset the fuel economy numbers of Zeta either. There are no obvious, near future high mileage V6 engine alternatives planned in the GM lineup right now, certainly nothing like the DI turbo four Ford has in the works at the moment....just more of the status quo. GM is seriously behind the curve on this one with Ford appearing to be a near future fuel economy standout overall.

The final insult lie with the cost of the Zeta chassis itself. I warned folks that developing a global rwd chassis in Australia was a bad idea for several reasons, not the least of which was Australia's affection for expensive platforms. Now we have a Zeta chassis which is exactly what I warned people that it would be and which potentially cannot be trimmed into more limited production without driving costs through the roof. Factor in the near constant rumours that Zeta was already proving a profitability problem before new CAFE standards were handed down and we have a case for a serious money loser here for GM if things go as poorly as they could.

Since Ford's global rwd platform is still in a relatively early stage of development, and since it is being developed here in Detroit instead of some pointless foreign locale, Ford has more than enough time to avoid all of these issues. It may be due to nothing more than a stroke of luck, but Ford is in nothing like the condition that GM is as it relates to CAFE troubles...and neither is the Mustang.

Slims00ls1z28

That article was crap spewed from soneone who does not know wtf he is talking about.

There should be no reason an LS engine into the SUB-4K lb car (a 4 door G8 weighs less than 4K and its heavier than the Camaro) could not produce numbers capable of reaching whatever CAFE expectations with just minor cost adjustments. My Z28 (A4) regularly got 30+ MPG actual (not rated, estimated, whatever but my actual mileage) and my GTO averages 26. The DI V6 should be just as good as any other out there as well. Zeta is going to be shared at this point with the G8, Camaro, and if it gets the final nod the G8 ST and a "possible" GMC version of it.

GM has not needed DOHC DI FI or whatever to exceed anything on the market comparable with their line of LS engines when it comes to mpg and emissions. They hit mid to high 20's in everything save for the vastly heavy Trailblazer SS which still got better MPG than the comparable Jeep SRT8. A Termi can beat my GTO in alot of areas but it will not get near the mileage even with similarly spec'd powertrains. Technology works more than just fancy monikers like DOHC etc.

The Z06 is the only 500 hp car to not get hit with a gas guzzler tax and meet ULEV standards as well. If they need to hit 30+ MPG with the Camaro then an LS3 with DOD and maybe flex fuel capability is all that it needs which will not drive the price up very much if any at all given the compatability of the LS series interchangeability.

The Mustang is not going to be void of the issues that the Camaro is going through (which is overstated). Just because a rumored mill shares some design similarities with another does not automatically mean that it would perform the same, not even close. GM has a handle on the gas saving tech as noted by Mercedes and BMW using it's tech to increase MPG in huge SUV's I'm sure they can handle a sub 4K lb Camaro G8 or whatever else is derrived from the Zeta line. Stating that the mustang is above because of a bunch of hypothetical situations and educated guesses is naive. GM is not the one behind the curve here, and Ford is by no means ahead of it.

Funny how you also say GM has nothing like the DI turbo 4 that ford has in the works. News flash, GM has one in production cars already, remember the sky redline and solstice GXP they have been out over a year now. It is also going into the Cobalt SS and HHR SS and rumors that it might find its way in the Malibu as well. DI turbo 4 cylinder as well as plans for turbo sixers. Adding DI on an LS is akin to wizzing on a spark plug? I'd love to se a scientific explanation on that one seeing how GM already has one test mule escalade with a "converted" L92 to direct injection not only increased horsepower but better low end torque and 6% increase in fuel economy. Thats for a conversion unit not one with heads specifically refined for the application.

ScottyBoy302

Always around to protect the Chevy honor.

I can second that on the camaro and the Z06, the LSX's get amazing gas mileage if you drive it with a little restraint...

Hollywood_North GT

Exactly correct. The perpetual GM/Zeta platform bashing by some around here is biased and erroneous. Some also forget that GM has the new Malibu Hybrid along with a number of alternative + flex fuel vehicles either available now or in the works. And to my knowledge, Ford has NOTHING to answer the forthcoming Chevy Volt, conceptually or otherwise.

Rest assured the 2010 Mustang GT will still use a V8 engine and be subject to the same CAFE problems as any V8 Camaro.

All tolled, GM is in a much more advanced state of turnaround right now than Ford. And we have yet to see any of the promised Ford turnaround vehicles on dealer lots, particularly when it comes to passenger cars. Fact is, Ford continues to put more emphasis on trucks and truck variations than on cars...and cars are what is needed now.

cheech6g

Maybe Ford doesn't have anything like the Volt....yet. But how about its plan to use all of the EcoBoost engines? I know its not exactly hybrids, but implementing them across their lineup (granted they actually increase gas milage significantly) would seriously boost their Fleet MPG which is exactly what they need to do. So when you look at, as long as Ford doesnt screw that up, they're doing ok.

However, they DO need something like the Volt and need to get on it right away. Toyota has their beloved Prius, Chevy the Volt, Honda with their upcoming FCX hydrogen car they plan to lease out in Cali. Now its Ford's turn to come up with something "symbolic" that changes the publics' view on them as far as Eco Friendly goes. Hopefully we'll see something soon, like the NYIAS = ) along with the 10' Mustang.....God willing haha

Slims00ls1z28

To back up my stance the NHTSA report lists GM's current CAFE higher than Ford's and it has been for a while now http://dmses.dot.gov/docimages/pdf102/480389_web.pdf Scroll to page 8 for 2007 go down for 06 05 etc. If you don't want to pull it up it is

Domestic Passenger- 29.6 GM/28.8 Ford; Light Truck- 22.5 GM/22.2 Ford; Import passenger 32.0 GM/29.7 Ford and these don't include the new line of Hybrid SUV's from GM. When taken into account with the new standard it gives them a 28.03 and 26.9 respectively. Not trying to bash Ford here but it appears Ford has more than GM to worry about not the other way around. With the entire line of new hybrids and flex fuels introduced for this year alone that number is likely to jump even higher, GM pretty much leads with the big 3 according to the NHTSA.

GM also came up with a completely new redesign of their turbo Diesel V8's which is supposed to be "industry leading" and is looking seriously into alot of DI turbo Diesel options for not only trucks but cars as well.

Finally found the quote from Settlemeyer on that article that I wanted to post earlier as well

Originally Posted by Fbodfather
All purely conjecture on the part of the author.

Oshawa will be a flex-plant -- so we'll be able to build other vehicles in that plant.

CAFE changes everything...........but right now, no one on the outside knows what we're going to do...........

jsaylor

None of this is as simple as some want it to be. First of all, were talking about more than a tweak here with CAFE ratings no matter how you slice it. Car-makers have been given a bit more than ten years to figure out how to get their combined car/suv/light truck fleets to hit 35mpg on average. It is worth mentioning that CAFE is somewhat more lax than
the epa rating system as it now stands, an average epa rating of 25mpg would likely get you pretty close to a 35mpg CAFE rating.

Where things get complicated is in the details. For example, talk abounds that how CAFE ratings are extrapolated will likely be revised, effectively meaning that automakers are going to have to make their fleets even more fuel efficient than the new CAFE standards already call for. Even more, it's pretty obvious that how quickly the lead auto makers start hitting these goals will have an impact on how and when issues get revised or updated, effectively meaning we are in the early stages of a fuel economy war and that the guys in the back of the pack are likely going to be in a bad way getting nailed with potentially huge...and I do mean huge... fines. Zeta cutbacks, a smaller Corvette.....GM isn't doing these things because they want to. The writing is on the wall and the auto makers are running scared, and rightly so, to try and beat the hatchet man to the punch.


Picking comparisons that suit your needs wont change the reality of the situation. They may not have needed DI and DOHC's in the past but they are going to need them now. Utilizing these features wont ensure that companies hit the goals they need but ignoring them will almost certainly mean they will miss them. As for LS motors with DI, no question such a move could help....a little. The reality is that DI is a bit of a beast with serious fuel delivery issues to overcome if you want to extract maximum possible mileage and performance. The reality is that using a separate camshaft for intake and exhaust valves as a DOHC engine does works wonders here in ways that a typical pushrod engine could never match. If you ever wondered why Mercedes began leaving their nearly new SOHC/3-valve tech behind when they decided to begin phasing DI into their production engines...now you know.

I assume you are using epa as a basis here so I'll go with the same.....DOD wouldn't come close to making a C6.5 Vette hit 30mpg EPA which means Camaro wouldn't stand a chance. The Corvette is currently rated at 26mpg highway right now. DOD and DI might net you another 2mpg on a good day. Throw in another 9mph to make up for difference in EPA ratings and CAFE standards and you have a Vette which sits right on top of the 35mpg requirement. Good right? Nope.

You see, for the above to be good you have to assume that things aren't going to change, like the afore-mentioned potential revision in CAFE ratings guidelines. And even if they miraculously don't tighten the belt even more GM still has to make up for their truck fleet. The Corvette discussed above may only be a wash with CAFE standards by 2015 or 2012 for all GM or us knows, meaning that their best V8 powered car will potentially be doing nothing to help CAFE ratings in less than five years. In a scenario like this every V8 powered Zeta model built would almost certainly fail to hit CAFE baseline numbers with 3.6L powered V6 models likely doing little better than meeting them at best. Since GM's economy cars fleet can't possible hope to make up for their trucks and SUV's you can see why this could be considered a problem.

Zeta's issues are anything but overstated, and while Mustang isn't immune to the challenges created by new CAFE standards it is, by appearances, in far better shape than Zeta or Camaro and as future Mustang development stands it doesn't suffer from the same issues that Zeta does. The problem here is that you keep talking in terms of what is going on right now with engines, etc. What is coming is what matters, and GM has very little that looks poised to make this an easy road for them. In no way, shape, or form was Zeta designed to cope with what is likely coming in terms of CAFE standards. And nothing I have stated is a hypothetical guess. We already know what the TTV6 engines are capable of as well as what the TCL4 engines are capable of. We also already know what has generally been done to create the upcoming 5.0L V8 and the basic specs are more than similar enough to indicate that Ford could simply ape the head and induction setup on the new Lexus V8 to reach the numbers they need with appearances being that it will debut with very similar power and mileage ratings to the Lexus.

However, even should that fail to materialize the reality is that Ford has a high mileage V8 alternative in the TTV6. GM has, effectively, nothing.

Ford has designed a purpose built, low pressure turbo four designed to provide V6 like power and far superior fuel efficiency in a reliable package. To make the thought put into this clear, from an engineering perspective they started this turbo application from scratch ignoring the existing MZR turbo engines completely, and with good reason. In contrast, you are talking about reverse engineering a hi-po powerplant to pull duty as a V6 stand in for regular passenger car models. if you cant see the difference here there is no need for me to waste my time trying to explain it.

Your explanation was given earlier, but it should be self explanitory to anybody that understands the difference between DOHC and OHV engines and the benefits and issues with direct injection. When it comes to DI OHC engines start with an inherent handicap that compromises potential mileage benefit and driveability....no plainer way to state it.