burningman

anyone think it would go this long?
http://jalopnik.com/5372872/camaro-b...straight-month

stangfoeva

yup.

its not that big a deal, and i'm sure you know the reason's why. too lazy to list

Zastava_101

It's kinda becoming a big deal. Like Doug said, it's been 4 months and counting.

burningman

So when on your scale when does it become a big deal? Just wondering.

ManEHawke

I'm seeing alot of them. This explains it.
The Mustang has gone down more each month too, and Camaro sales are somewhat steady.

2k7gtcs

When is someone gonna finally admit the *** on the '10 isn't doing it any favors.

I'm not looking to get into a big thing here. But for some reason they are having to put rebates and incentives on these cars, so either its the butt or the fact they should have had the Coyote ready to go into the 2010 from the start.

burningman

or both

even the challenger that is obviosly not a contender in this fight is actually up for Sept.

jsaylor

I'm inclined to go with stangfoeva here. Camaro is enjoying the fruit of pent up demand and it will subside. In fact, I would argue that the info is damning for the Camaro when you dig deeper. Example? Take a look at a sales numbers breakdown and look at how the V6 model is selling relative to the V8-powered SS, V6 sales are in the crapper with the absolute base model having yet to hit...believe it....1000 units sold. We all know that when the dust settles V6 sales will have to account for a majority of Camaro sales or the car just wont make it, and right now it looks like the Camaro will honestly be hard pressed to seriously best Challenger sales numbers once the 'new' has worn off if we look to V6 sales numbers as an indication.

I do believe that the Camaro SS has had an effect on the GT, but I have no doubt it will be short term (ie: wont live past the 2011 model introduction)

I disagree here as personally I think the butt has nothing to do with the sales decline. In fact, I think the restyle is one of the improvements which has kept sales from sliding more than they have. I think the sales slide for the Mustang has many fathers including

1: SS Camaro has stolen some thunder from the Mustang GT amongst the power hungry, but as I said above it wont last.

2: The V6 Mustang has finally just gotten tired, I mean really tired. The 4.0L Cologne was pushing it in 2005 and is well beyond pushing it right now. I dare say very few people are going to kill themselves trying to get their hands on a base model Mustang and will go so far as to state that this is the most uncompetitive base Mustang in terms of engine offering in decades.

3: IMO Ford has screwed up the options packages and to quite some extent. Example? The only two options I care about in a 2010 GT are the Track Pack and leather seats. Now take a look at what I have to order to get that from Ford. Before the redesign I could look for a Deluxe with leather and the Shaker 500 stereo which was roughly a 1k option, and if the Track pack had existed then even at current pricing in the 31.5 k range. However, since I have to order the Premium model to get those leather seats, or the TP for that matter, the price of my car with the two options I want is 2k more than that...all for stuff I could care less about. I worked in the auto industry for a time and I understand the appeal of these grand 'one size fits all' options strategies which simplify production. The problem here though is that one size doesn't fit all and 2k is enough of a difference to create some problems. You have to streamline to some extent, Ford has gone too far for their own good.

houtex

The Camaro is new. The 2010 isn't... it's redesigned, yes, but NOT new... just upgraded here and there, but still overall, same S197. People have been *salivating* to get the Camaro since it went out, and wouldn't dream of getting *anything* Ford or Dodge or anything else... and all that pent up waiting is catching up. It's a blip, no worries. Once those desires are sated... well, I just don't think the Camaro has truly got any hopes of killing Mustang in the long term, esp. with 2011 coming up.

There will always be fans of both. The point of when it becomes a truly big deal is when it's obvious Mustang has to stop production because its sales suck. That's not gonna happen anytime soon... although I agree... that 2010 butt is not bootylicious at all. They need the 2011 to be redesigned on that one issue *stat*.

Evil_Capri

10-12 months . . . .

RedCandy5.0

It will be a big deal next yr when the new drive trains come out and the Camaro is still selling more. This yr was a lame duck yr for the Mustang.
Plus you can get a 1SS with 426hp, 20" wheels and the Boston Acoustic stereo for 31K after 1K off sticker.

hi5.0

Well, GM has to make up for those "lost" 7 years and it took long enough to actually start selling those things. Wait "'till the new wears off" and the "gotta-have-its" all get theirs. If Ford comes through in 2011, that's when the real battle starts. Oh yeah, fix the rear end.

Slims00ls1z28

Whoa pump your brakes kimosabe. You agree to look in between the lines but didn't look any farther than what you found to fit to your liking. There's more to your break down than you let on. For starters,

1. A large number of the sales are from pre-orders (and there are many who preordered who still haven't been filled sad I know) and most pre-orders were the V-8.

2. For your same V-6 analogy the same holds true with the Chally, most are of the V-8 brethren so I highly doubt that the Chally will even come close to the Camaro sales especially with the Chally's much higher price tag and when the Camaro outsold both the Mustang and Chally combined 3 out of 4 of those months.

3. Production is still not caught up completely with demand yet and the V-6 has had a large number of constraints compared to the V-8 for some reason. When they start getting to where there are several on every lot in the US I bet you will see V-6 sales jump, count on it. Your average base model buyer is not too keen on ordering and waiting for a car, they want to go to a lot and drive one off.

I live in by a fairly large city (Memphis) and you will not see many if any on the lots here yet. When the surge dies down sure the overall numbers might drop but when the demand catches up and there are plenty on the lots you can count on the base models to jump. The fact that the V-8 is selling like it is great any way you want to look at it and I for one don't see anything in that that would put it in the crapper no matter which way you look at it. By the way cite/post your source please I want to see the numbers myself as I have yet to see a model breakdown.

burningman

That probably wont happen but this is far longer than any of the nay sayers on this forum predicted.
I'm just saying this car has more traction than alot of people are giving it credit for.

stangfoeva

it becomes a big deal if when the 5.0 comes out the camaro is still outselling it. THEN i would panic.

I mean heck, you've got hardcore Mustang fans who won't even touch a '10 because of the 5.0 coming in '11.

I'm sure you know all the other factors for the camaro out selling (newness, its hiatus, etc.) but IMO the 5.0 (and 3.7 for that matter) being 99.99% confirmed is killing stang sales. plus there are still tons of '09s out too

jsaylor

I did take that into consideration, but this only makes a difference if that additional V8 production is genuinely constraining V6 production and if GM could sell more V6 Camaros if they were producing them. More on this in a second.

There are V6 Camaros on lots even if there aren't a lot of them, so while supply is likely thin enough to have an impact on V6 Camaro sales I don't buy the notion that sales are taking a full on bath because of the same. 1LT and 2LT have done much better, but to be blunt V6 model sales would have to literally double for GM to hit their minimum sales target according to Lutz. Even with the addition of a convertible and the Z28 I don't see that happening anytime soon. And while we can potentially blame a lot of this on the state of the economy, you have to wonder if GM is going to let the car slide on that premise.

I live in by a fairly large city (Memphis) and you will not see many if any on the lots here yet. When the surge dies down sure the overall numbers might drop but when the demand catches up and there are plenty on the lots you can count on the base models to jump. The fact that the V-8 is selling like it is great any way you want to look at it and I for one don't see anything in that that would put it in the crapper no matter which way you look at it. By the way cite/post your source please I want to see the numbers myself as I have yet to see a model breakdown.[/quote]

I ran across these numbers at LS1 Tech.

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/2010-c...ed-so-far.html

RedCandy5.0

How can this car not sell? Best bang for your buck if you are not brand loyal and you want power. Challenger does not have a chance as the 425hp STR8 is in the 40's when you can get a 426hp 1SS for low 30's. R/T can not compete with it for the same price. My dealership was going to give me 1K off on top of the 32K price and that included the 20" wheels and the Boston Acoustic stereo. The Mustang has just not changed that much for people to go out and purchase a new one when you cross shop. I think people are just bored with it. Hopefully the 3.7 and the 5.0 with put some life back into the Mustang but mostly just for the performance oriented. But again the Camaro just looks better and less retro to a lot of people as the Mustang has not changed that much going on 6 yrs.

jsaylor

Looks are subjective so the 'better' portion of this I can appreciate. However, the less retro argument still surprises me. IMO the Camaro is far more retro than the Mustang, particularly the 2010, because the Camaro looks so much like a car from another era 'customized' for the here and now. For me the least retro cars have a timelessness about their styling and are thus believable as modern designs. Put another way, I can look at the MINI, 911, or Mustang and believe that those designs could have existed today even if there had never been an original, the basic design itself not appearing old being what many consider 'timeless' basic designs. Camaro and Challenger look like the sixties era designs they are updated, to differing degrees, for the current day and thus already have a hint of age to them.....in other words they aren't timeless by any measure.

Just my take on it.

Wolfsburg

The Camaro is brand new and there are a lot of Camaro fans out there. There's nothing shocking about it.

I actually see more Challengers than I do anything else. I've yet to see a 2010 Mustang on the road, and have only seen 2-3 new Camaros.

rhumb

No surprise, despite Ford fan-boy keenings, the Camaro is a **** fine car -- hardly perfect -- but a **** fine car and Ford better keep on its toes to keep in the game. Ford's essentially had the pony-car ball field to itself the past half decade or so and I think it shows in various aspects of modest product improvements/enhancements and some immodest pricing. The "good enough" complacency that has marked the past half decade simply won't be good enough any more.

Good stiff competition is great all around and I do think/hope Ford will step up its game even more as evidenced by the coming introductions of the 3.7 and 5.0 motors and at least in the latter case, some significant drive train and chassis improvements to go along with the new motor.

Of course, Chevy could likely respond itself with some improvements in chassis tuning (they've got a great base that just needs a but more finesse), take care of some quality issues (none major) and up its oomph even more (GM seems to do this as a matter of course with its motors).

And of course Ford could respond with its redesign by then by shaving another 200lbs of fat, improving aerodynamics, adding DI to its motors to up HP and MPG while trimming pollution, finally ditching the 19th century buggy axle for a 21st century Control Blade IRS for ride AND handling both, etc.

Then Dodge will bring out a new Challenger with its gorgeous styling intact in a 5/8 scale redesign...

Then Hyundai will grow a pair and stick their honking V8 in their Genesis Coupe...

And then Chevy will....

Ah, competition, gotta love it.