AtillaEsq

"Two bits of *technology aid in the quarter-mile fight: “No-lift shift” allows you to crack off upshifts without easing off the gas, and launch control *manages wheelspin and helps 0-to-60 consistency (although we were able to beat the *system after a few attempts). Get everything right, and the ZL1 hits 60 mph in 4.1 seconds and passes 1320 feet in 12.3 seconds at 119 mph—or better, as the cold and dusty track at Inde was less than ideal for acceleration runs. Few cars costing less than $60,000 can claim such feats"

Looks like Chevy is choking. Car and Driver is already making excuses for them.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...l1-test-review

bpmurr

Yeah well it beat the LS Boss easily in the Motortrend comparison using a pro driver. It looks like the technology used in the car makes for a great overall driving experience. I'll seriously consider one depending on Fords pricing and availability of the GT500.

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...2_laguna_seca/

rhumb

Can't wait for the inevitable head-to-head tests between the '13 GT500 and the ZL1. My guess would be a bit of a draw with the GT500 outgunning the ZL1 a bit in the straights (basic physics here, no surprises) but the ZL1 predominating in the other 359 degrees of the performance compass (turning and braking, especially in bumpier real-world situations).

Of course, a truly new Mustang will be coming out in about year or two, so this would represent the S197 platforms swan song vs. the Camaro that will be on scene until at least 2016 if rumors are correct. I wonder how long after the standard issue Mustangs appear that the next GT500 (or equivalent) will debut? And the Boss?

MARZ

You know, we heard a lot of this when the 2011 Mustang 5.0L was set to be released. "The Mustang may wind up being quicker in the straights, but the superiority of the Camaro's IRS will show up in the corners," etc. That didn't wind up being the case, obviously, with the Mustang 5.0L besting (is that a word?) the Camaro SS in virtually every category, and not just acceleration. In fact, I remember one reviewer saying something along the lines of, "I'll take the best solid axle suspension over a mediocre IRS set-up any day" (I'm not getting into an SRA vs. IRS debate; I'm just making a point by quoting someone who actually compared the two cars head-to-head). My point is that everything is just speculation at this point. I'll wait until the reviewers have had a chance to compare the 2013 GT500 and the Camaro ZL1 head-to-head. Who knows, the S197 Mustang may have a trick or two up its sleeves before bowing to a more modern car in 2015.

2 Go Snake

We will all have to wait untill a production version of the ZL1 is available for magazines to test. A preproduction ZL1 does not tell the real story. Who knows what the tune on a preproduction model is that was played with by engineers eager to win ?

Evil_Capri

Moving to 'General Vehicle Discussion' section, but will leave a link for today . . .

Driver72

Here's my take on the whole situation:

The 2013 GT500 will clearly be the faster car in a straight line.
low 12's @ 118-119 for the ZL1 (as it's been tested and seems what one would expect given the power to weight).

The 13 GT500 should do high 11's (probably 11.8's) @ 123ish mph

The ZL1 will have the better ride, with it's MR suspension and IRS, that's a given.
In a tight road course or an autocross type course (which neither of these two cars is best suited for) the ZL1 would probably take the 13 GT500 by a small margin, since it's better suspension and handling will prevail over the GT500's additional power.

However, in most tracks, there are always at least one long straight, one medium straight. Combined with slow and fast corners, the power of the 13 GT500 will overcome it's slight handling deficiency.

On the same track as what Motor Trend tested the ZL1 against the Boss 302 LS (which is not a fair comparison anyway and should of tested it against the 2012 GT500 to be a closer comparo price wise and top dog ponycar wise) I think:
2013 GT500 would lap about .5-.7 seconds faster than the ZL1

The 2013 GT500 will have equally as good suspension as the Boss 302 LS, better brakes (though it's extra weight may nullify that), better LSD, and better tires (same Goodyear supercar G2's as ZL1). Those tires alone are probably worth 1 second over the tires the Boss 302 LS has.

Now in a bumpy road course where the track is not ideal, the ZL1 may still very well have the edge.
But I think that all won't matter anyway.

99% of owners will not have the talents or desires to drive either car to their limits on a road course. Many times more will however desire to, and probably will take them to a drag strip. And in that arena, the 13 GT500 will beat out the ZL1 every time with equal drivers. Heck the GT500 driver can probably be 10% worse and still edge out a win.

Plus, if Ford is smart, they'll price the 13 GT500 $1-2k less than the ZL1, and combined with the fact the ZL1 gets a $1,300 gas guzzler tax and the GT500 doesn't, there is no doubt, as usual which will be the sales leader.

MARZ

Again, it's really impossible to say right now which car will be better and where one will excel over the other. I'm not sure if you were around here back in 2009 when the 2010 Camaro was set to be released, but almost everyone was speculating how much better the Camaro SS would be than the 2010 Mustang GT since, on paper, Chevy's pony car was superior in every single way, you know, with its bigger engine, "superior" IRS, etc. As we all know, the much-less-powerful Mustang GT and its antiquated solid rear axle more than held its own against the Camaro SS. Ford and SVT have made significant improvements to the Mustang almost every year since the release of the Camaro, so I wouldn't count them out, despite the ZL1's perceived technological advantage. The lighter, more-powerful GT500 may just surprise you on all fronts.

Driver72

Oh I know the 13 GT500 will be very impressive, but you can't compare the 2010 Camaro SS to the ZL1
Yes the Camaro SS has an IRS, but it also has plain jane shocks.
The ZL1's Magnetic shocks are world class, as pretty much everyone knows, so world class, Ferrari copied GM's Magnetic shocks they debuted on the Corvette for use on cars like the 458 Italia.
They are again, world class and combined with the IRS suspension, no matter what the GT500 has, it not only doesn't have the Magnetic shocks, but it also doesn't have IRS.
The solid rear axle can only be taken so far, and the Boss 302 LS and most likely the upcoming 13 GT500 will be the pinnacle of the solid rear axle.

But let's not try to fool anyone here, it's still no IRS.
The Camaro SS didn't lose in handling to the 10 GT Mustang because the 10 GT Mustang's solid rear axle was superior, the SS lost because it was bigger, heavier, and it's suspension is tuned softer, IRS or not.

But again, there is no question, you give the 13 GT500 and the 12 Camaro ZL1 the same power to weight, and no matter how good they make the suspension on the 13 GT500, without the world class Magnetic suspension that GM developed and others have now copied, and without an IRS the 13 GT500 would stand no chance around a track (or in the handling department in general) against the ZL1.
The GT500 will probably beat the ZL1 around most tracks simply do to it's 70 hp advantage COMBINED with it's 300 lbs less curb weight (ie: it's power to weight), and possibly braking advantage too.
There is a reason pretty much no other performance car made uses a solid rear axle anymore, and you can probably bet the farm the next gen Mustang will ditch it for good as well, or at least will have an IRS on the performance models models like the Boss that is intended for track duty.

The drag strip is where that solid rear axle of the GT500 and it's power to weight advantage will keep it several car lengths ahead.

bob

Your saying the GYSC2 tires are better than the R-compund tires the Boss LS comes with?

Driver72

Oh crap, I thought the Boss LS came with PS2's? Guess I should have looked before saying that.
All I know is the supercar 2's are getting all kinds of rave reviews as being a unbelievable track car tire, so who knows they may equal or better the R compound of the Boss LS too.
That would be a good tire test to find out.

bob

The Boss like the GT sports Pirellis across the board, the current GT500 is fitted with GYSC2s , it would have been nice if Ford would have fitted Michelin Pilot Super Sports or the Sport Cup tires but they are pretty expensive at the GT/Boss price points. I talked to a Michelin rep one time and he told me they hated playing at the OE level so another reason might be that Michelin just never returned Ford's call with the high performance stuff (I've seen brand new V6 Mustangs fitted with the Michelin Energy Saver)

rhumb

It will probably be pretty close, likely a drivers race, on relatively smooth race tracks, especially those with longer straights. The emphasis of the GT500 still is more on the straight line speed end of the spectrum, though its handling has come a long ways. I would imagine the ZL1 might make for a more rounded performance car on real world roads though.

One indication of this is, I recall seeing somewhere on the Internets, a list of caveats from Ford about any serious prolonged track time with the GT500 without adding a number of additional coolers (tranny, diff) and whatnot lest you melt these bits down on extended runs (beyond a 1/4 mile?). The ZL1 comes standard with everything short of the jack handle having a cooler on it and no such restrictions, allowing some impressive 'Ring times (which Ford, oddly, has been hesitant to release for the GT500).

Not trying to rag on the GT500, per se, but these two cars do seem to have somewhat different foci with the ZL1 emphasizing a more rounded performance envelope while the GT500 is decidedly sharper along the longitudinal axis of its envelope.

Of course, all speculation and bench racing at this point, can't wait for the head-to-heads!

11SHELBYGT500

How many time did you say IRS in this? GET OVER IT YOU LAUGHABLE WORLD CLASS GM FANBOY

MARZ

You're probably onto something, rhumb, but I have a feeling the 2013 GT500 will surprise some folks. From Road and Track, written by someone's who's actually ridden in a (cobbled-up, preproduction mule of a) 2013 GT500,

"Compared to the 2011 car, the 2013 car is far sharper and precise in its body motions. Pitch and roll in Sport mode are almost nonexistent. For 2013, the wheels will be slightly different in style, but retain the same forging and size. The new Goodyear Eagle F1 Supercar G:2 tires will remain the same size as well, so the changes I felt are mostly coming from the suspension."

http://www.roadandtrack.com/tests/dr...d-shelby-gt500

SVTPerformance did some interviews with SVT Chief Engineer, Jamal Hameedi, and he explained why some of the coolers were made optional. His explanation made sense and I'm going to trust Ford knows what they're doing. Basically, according to him, they aren't needed in all circumstances; because they add cost and weight, Ford will let the customer decide which route to go rather than a company bureaucrat making the decision for them.

http://youtu.be/X86dnnBGFkQ?hd=1&t=4m46s

Please be warned, Jamal says "uhhh" and "ummm" a lot, ha ha. He does seem to be a much classier person than Al Oppenheiser.

I agree. Until these two behemoths are compared head-to-head, everything's merely speculation at this point. I will give GM credit where it's due and say that the ZL1 appears to be one helluva car!

Driver72

You don't have many friends do you?

Driver72

+1

It will be a good comparison between the two.
I stated what I think above, but I also give credit where it's due.
Even if the ZL1 beat the 13 GT500 around a track, the GT500 would be the one I'd choose, as ultimate handling (and we'd be talking probably tenths of a second on a road course, at most a second difference between the two) isn't the defining factor when I buy a car.
I'd put a bit more weight into straight line speed, as open roads and drag strips are where most of these two cars will see their fun times, and in that regard, I put more weight on which goes faster.
Plus I just like the look of the GT500 better, and like Ford better, I've owned 4-5 Fords since 1989 when I got my first Mustang 5.0, I've never owned a GM car. But not too say I never will.

AlsCobra

They're all great cars. The one that responds better to mods is the one I'm calling the winner. Because nobody leaves any car stock nowadays do they?

MARZ

That's a good point. You know, Chevy's making a big deal about the fact the ZL1 comes standard with various component coolers and Ford options them out on the GT500. I think Ford should make a big deal that the Shelby comes standard with forged pistons, forged connecting rods, etc. Yeah, the LS motors are strong and all, but you can only go so far utilizing cast aluminum pistons, even when oil is being squirted on them. The Ford 5.8L also features the bigger supercharger of the two (2.3L vs 1.9L TVS), meaning there's more potential in that regard, too.

Driver72

Depends on what you mean by responding to mods.
Honestly, does really anybody short of a drag racer need more than 650 hp in a 3850 lbs car.
That's good enough to outrun supercars from just 3-4 years ago.
I mean, who among us didnt drool over a Ferrari F430 just a couple years ago and would be more than happy and content with it's acceleration ability?
Well the 13 GT500 will accelerate just as fast, if not a bit faster.

There will be few cars who can out accelerate the 13 GT500 and chances of you pulling up along side one by coincidence on the street that can is highly unlikely. And if you do, you nod and say "nice car" as I'm sure they paid much more for theirs than you did for the GT500. Trying to prove who has the faster car at that point in time would be asking for trouble when dealing with cars of that much power and speed, and may very well end one or both of you in jail, hospital, or a grave.
Street racing is dangerous and stupid anyway, but less so in a normal performance car where the "race" can be over in a few seconds and never go above 80 mph.
Dealing with cars that trap 120+ in the 1/4 on the street and you are into triple digit speeds before you know it.

If I get a 13 GT500, the engine would probably remain stock.
I'd mod other aspects of the car to personalize it.