clockworks

I'm the one who's suppose to be smiling like a retard, not my car!

For someone like me, that's a pretty hefty price jump... but I still agree with you. I think the same should be done to the Mustang. I would have gladly paid a couple grand extra for a nicer interior, or at least one that didn't shake, rattle and squeak.

So what is it with American car companies and crappy interiors? Do they just lack the manufacturing techniques? Do they really think skimping $1k on a $25k or $45k car is what people want? Maybe I'm just not reading deep enough into the problem and don't realize that reusing parts from other models saves much more than I think?

Knight

I think the mustang is already getting too expensive to have as wide as market as it used too. I think they need to find a way to make it less expensive.

kevinb120

Porsche interiors are not standards for quality. A 5 year old boxter is a rattletrap.

jsaylor

And a 5 year old Boxster is nothing like the one they build now. Actually you've helped make the point of what is fundamentally wrong with the Vette's progression in this area without trying to.

I don't care for the original Boxster, interior or otherwise....but Porsche saw the potential to expand the appeal, and thereby the sales and ROI, of the car through myriad improvements including a much imporved interior. The new Cayman and Boxster are truly desirable sports cars that are also well rounded. As a pair they represent a huge improvement over the former Boxster in every respect and are world class cars all around.

So what does this tell us? Arguably it says that Porsche's learning curve as it applies to the benefit of better seats, materials, and construction is one generation or about eight years if you prefer. Chevy has had roughly 60 years and six generations to accomplish the same, and they haven't done it. Like I said earlier, they just don't get it.

Slims00ls1z28

I would have to argue the fact that cthe Corvette outsells the boxter and cayman combined (more than likely the 911 as well) so they got something figured out. Reguardless of what you have posted before you don't see many surplus vettes on the lot especially Z06's. They sell all of them they make. And since they actually meet the demand through mass production there is no markup on the Z06, not lagging sales. C5-R's (the not street legal racing vette) sales alone were only about 1500 less than the total number of Porsches sold in the US 30,000 C5-r's to 31,377 of all Porsche models combined and of course the US market the biggest market for both. So more sales or better interior? Well its obvious which way they went but given the #'s sold it sounds to me like they have it figured out quite well. I understand your sentiment on the porsche vs vette arguement but that is your sentiment about them. There are way more vette faithful than porsche faithful bar none.

The base Vette vs the Cayman scenario is a fair situation 45,075 vs 49,400 and its a pretty good matchup. However comparing a Z06 with a Cayman in performance and saying it better outperform it is not. The Z06 is on par with the 911 GT3R (it beats it with the same tires) if you want to get into just a pure performance aspect of the 2 vehicles (the market each is after) those are the two you compare and it is a 70k vehicle vs a 119k vehicle and guess what the Z06 rides much better than the GT3R and that is according to MotorTrend of all people.

Moosetang

Absolutely, the world's second-largest car maker sells more Corvettes worldwide (by that I mean, just in NA) than Porsche sells cars total in the US. Of course, take in worldwide Porsche sales and it's a different story. Porsche's global sales were over 100,000k and growing. NA may be the largest market, but for Zee Germans it's not the only.

I don't know what you're smoking with this. The C5-R was never sold to customers, it was a car built for GM racing by Pratt and Miller, only a few were ever built, and they're about as closely related to production C5s as I am to Ming the Merciless. TOTAL C6 production for all models (hard, rag, Z06) in 2006 was 34,000 units, edging the Boxster/Cayman but losing to every other Porsche model.
Porsche sales and production were up, GM made 3000 fewer Vettes in 06 than 05. You tell me which one's doing better.
Having the "America's best-handling car" MT issue in front of me I can tell you that's crap. First of all, MT low-balled the base price by $5k, and got nowhere near the actual MSRP. So they were giving the Z06 a break out o fthe block. And yet they ranked it 9th, here's their summary:

Slims00ls1z28

The C5-R was sold to customers. The program started in 2001. Would you like a link of when it started? I did get one thing mixed up and yes that was the 30k C5-R's. Yes I admit I didn't read fully into that article I scanned it and got the #'s transposed . However the C5-R and probably the C6-R as well was sold to private racing firms because of the sucess of the original program. Reguardless we are talking porsches and vettes.

Yes there was less 06's than in 05'. So what. Its not 2005, it's 07 and so far 07 sales are up even though production has ceased. The C6 introductin was not well recieved in general by the Vette faithful. Final #'s are not posted on the bowling green website yet however there are serial numbers indicating over 36,000 07 vettes for the 07 year. Still higher than than the Cayman AND Boxter. The boxter is not even in the same class but it was included to show the lower numbers. So my original point still stands GM gets it. They sell more.

100k vehicles for a year for an entire company? Didn't Daewoo sell that many? Whats your point 100k is not a huge number for a complete auto manufacturer line. Hell More mustangs alone sold than all the Porsches combined worldwide. Now want to compare the Entire Ford lineup vs Porsche's 100k? Besides isn't Porsche a subsidiary of Volkswagon AG?

My base prices were not from that MT mag. I posted the MSRP from Both Porsche.com and Chevrolet.com. I can get a Z51 Vette for the Same price as a Cayman S and still have better performance where it counts and you will not get a GT3 for less than 119k period whether you want to claim lowball or not Vettes are still Cheaper period. Want a handling test Go to Germany and run it on the Nurburgring Where the Vettes beat the Porsches. C6 vs Cayman= C6. Cayman S vs Z51= Z51. Z06 vs GT3 (with same tires this go around) = Z06. I bought it to laugh at it. I already knew any American auto on it would place low I just got it to look at the GT500KR. They ALWAYS lean towards BMW and Porsche in any test they do so they fact that THEY said the GT3 rode bad let me know it rides worse than the Z06. So I didn't even read the summary on MT I just read a few points in it and reviewed some times listed. I was really intrigued by the fact that they tested a Car with Cup tires vs a bunch of street tired cars and suprise it beat all in handling.

I again will repeat I am not a Vette fan and would never buy one but blatent hate for a vehicle and misinformation I will respond to. How is Porsche fairing in racing venues again? Weren't they started on a racing platform?

jsaylor

I could recover a lot of ground Moosetang already did a very good job of explaining for no good reason, but instead I'll just point out a couple of issues..

First, cars like the Vette aren't about total sales volume; they're about performance, usability, prestige, and ROI for the company and the consumer. Chevy has the first one covered pretty well, gets a seriously mixed review on the second, could do much better with just a little effort on the third, and probably gets killed on the fourth as a company even if consumers do okay here.

The fact that you compared the Z06 to the GT3 helps to make a good point here. The GT3 is a genuine race car for the street sold in very low numbers that has stellar chassis dynamics and goes nearly as fast as the Z06 does with over 100hp less and nothing like the LS7's torque. Granted, the German is far more expensive than the Vette, but it justifies it's price by being a scalpel sharp driving tool...as the great Porsche's always are.

And unlike the Z06 the GT3 gets a pass on everyday usability because it isn't Porsche's only 'uber' performing offering....it's simply the one meant for people who don't care about comfort and who want a more or less race ready version of the standard Porsche 911 which can be driven on street or track. If I want greater livability and ridiculous speed I can simply move on over to the 911 Turbo and my wish is granted.

And while that car is very expensive it is notable because it exists. When Chevy decided to churn out an uber-Vette they effectively made them all GT3's with the Z06 being best-suited for consumers who care virtually nothing for comfort...just like the GT3. I would be genuinely curious to know if it ever occured to anybody within the halls of GM that there might be a consumer base for a car with Z06 level power that doesn't require you to raise your voice to talk to the your passenger at 80mph? Or perhaps somebody who wants that same 500hp Vette might want seats that are better than those in a 28k dollar Mazdaspeed 6 (and I am not even remotely exagerating here, many cars far cheaper than the standard Vette possess seats better than those found in any Vette)

And these are the kinds of problems we have with the Vette. I could go on and on but Chevy doesn't get it and neither do most Chevy enthusiasts in my experience. A better plan, say for the C7 since C6 is done...here goes.

First, spread the chassis around just a bit, and with more forethought than simply trying to build a SL wannabe. This will let GM sink more money into the platform but still keep costs reaonable even with major improvements. Good candidates, starting with the Vette of course.

1. Corvette in coupe, roadster, and retractable hardtop guises. Give it a far better interior (benchmark the 911, Cayman, and TT and they'll be fine) and get the NVH, build quality, and dynamics on the same plane as that same Cayman. Maintain the current Corvette strong points like mileage, etc. No miracles here just good engineering. Build about as many per year as they currently do but sell this improved, and world class, Vette in every market where Chevy, Holden, or Vauxhall has a presence. Same sales numbers overall if US sales would go down (not a bad thing really), slightly higher msrp likely without the need fo rebates given improvments and lower local market volume, and most importnatnly the opportunity for a far better ROI and better exclusivity and prestige...more breathing room for the Camaro to become a world class car is a huge bonus as well.

2. Four door, four seat Cadillac 'coupe' based on a stretched wheelbase version of the C7's chassis intended to go head to head with the CLS. A ~6.0L V12 shared with a new Caddy flagship sedan would be appropriate and would help give this car the prestige it needs. Also worth mentioning is that this car gives GM an excuse to build that V12 flagship that has been in the planning stags for years now. This car would also help give engineers the excuse they need to make C7 NVH and chassis dynamics world class. And without a doubt this would sell far better than the XLR has or ever will.

3. Pontiac GTO..Based on a lower cost version of the same stretched wheelbase platform as the Caddy this time with 4-seats and 2-doors. This car gives engineers an excuse to create two suspension setups, one lower cost and one premium with GTO's and base Vette's getting the lower cost stuff and Vette' like the Z06 and the Caddy getting the higher dollar stuff. Engine options could be identical to those of the Vette without threatening the Vett'e position in the heirarchy since the GTO is obviously going to be bigger and heavier than that car. I'll go out on a limb and say that a 45k dollar, two plus two, GTO with exceptional, low slung, long hood-short deck styling, world class dynamics, and a base engine with roughly 45ohp would do just fine in the marketplace. It would bring some serious attention to Pontiac too.

I'm a nobody who wouldn;t get the time of day in a boardroom, and yet I think the above makes far more sense than anything GM is likely to roll out.

Slims00ls1z28

We'll have to agree to disagree on the one upmanship on those for now. I agree with #1, I think #2 would anger GM's Corvette faithful even moreso than the ditching of the pop up headlights so I don't see that anywhere near feasible with a vette badge, maybe a caddy version but not the vette.#3 agree with ya full force as well. I am eagerly anticipating the return of the GTO. I happen to love the interior on the outgoing one. But the GTO was only intended to be a 3 year deal and the new GTO which recieves less notoriety than the new Camaro is supposeldy going to be based on the same Zeta chassis. And with the new LS3 comming out no doubt it'll find its way into those. Hopefully they keep the GTO's high points, nice interior, great sound, fairly decent performance and handling, and ditch the bland look, super small trunk, and finiky IRS. The Zeta IRS is supposedly leagues better.

Moosetang

You asserted that Porsche's NA sales indicated that the Corvette was a better seller than any of their cars, I was pointing out that NA is only Part of Porsche's sales while it's the entirety of 'Vette sales. And I was inferring that the 'Vette's "great" sales would be alot better if the car was built to a standard that made it marketable worldwide. Oh and no, Porsche is not a subsidiary of Volks. In fact, Porsche recently tried to buy VW, I'd like to see the big 2.5 able to pony up the dough to be able to buy VW.

Slims00ls1z28

Porsche must be raking some seroius coin to even consider buying VAG. I know they make more profit per vehicle but still I wouldn't think they have enough in sales to be even considered in a postion for a buyout. Isn't VW like in the top five (dunno haven't looked up the stats)? They might be able to Purchase Lamborghini, Bently, etc, from them but I doubt anyone has the coin to actually buy VAG.

edit P.S. It's probably more like 2.1 Chrysler has been sold for a measly 7 bil.

jsaylor

I wouldn't have thought so either, but they're doing it. Porsche has put forth their official 'pretty please' to the European union for a VAG buyout. And you don't get that far unless you have already proven you have the cash.

Slims00ls1z28

Sounds like a great time in investing in Porsche stocks