Drufus

Though it was before my time, I know very well that 1970 was the last year before high performace cars started a downward trend. Emissions controls killed the cars of the 70's.

Now with all the fuel economy concerns, and many states suing the government for allowing poor economy vehicles, will there be a big change in the auto industy? I read an article saying it will take a few years for technology to reach most cars to drastically improve mileage. So will 2008 or a year in a near future put an end to the increasing horsepower trend???

Knight Rider

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Drufus @ May 3, 2006, 9:36 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
Though it was before my time, I know very well that 1970 was the last year before high performace cars started a downward trend. Emissions controls killed the cars of the 70's.

Now with all the fuel economy concerns, and many states suing the government for allowing poor economy vehicles, will there be a big change in the auto industy? I read an article saying it will take a few years for technology to reach most cars to drastically improve mileage. So will 2008 or a year in a near future put an end to the increasing horsepower trend???
[/b][/quote]
As long as it doesn't happen. I'll be happy [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrinjester.gif[/img]

nonsensez9

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Drufus @ May 3, 2006, 7:36 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
Though it was before my time, I know very well that 1970 was the last year before high performace cars started a downward trend. Emissions controls killed the cars of the 70's.

Now with all the fuel economy concerns, and many states suing the government for allowing poor economy vehicles, will there be a big change in the auto industy? I read an article saying it will take a few years for technology to reach most cars to drastically improve mileage. So will 2008 or a year in a near future put an end to the increasing horsepower trend???
[/b][/quote]

funny... I read an news article today that refining capacities are up, inventories are up, demand has slipped a bit, and still prices are going up.

traffic142

I commented about this a few months ago. It seems like just when performance is in the for front of automakers, something always happens. Maybe it is just the natural trend now a days.

Guess we will just have to see. I hope not

tw0scoops123

Na it won't repeat. People will just cut back on other expenses. I know I am, especially to make up for the performance parts I want. Unless the world litterally runs out of oil in which case I'd be more worried about the anarchy that would ensue.

blackhat

I wouldn't worry about it. They are targeting SUVs and the like which currently automakers are exempt from including in their average fuel economy figures. They want to make those count which would force automakers to make the big SUVs more fuel efficient.

stangster

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Drufus @ May 3, 2006, 9:36 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
Though it was before my time, I know very well that 1970 was the last year before high performace cars started a downward trend. Emissions controls killed the cars of the 70's.

Now with all the fuel economy concerns, and many states suing the government for allowing poor economy vehicles, will there be a big change in the auto industy? I read an article saying it will take a few years for technology to reach most cars to drastically improve mileage. So will 2008 or a year in a near future put an end to the increasing horsepower trend???
[/b][/quote]

I was just beginning to drive when the last big enery "crisis" hit. It did put the brakes on performance for sure. I don't think it will be the same this time. In fact, I ordered my 2006 GT in Feb. knowing that I was going to pay more to drive it. I would rather give something else up.

This time it seems to be as much about competing markets (China) and greed as anything else. Oil companies are making historic profits, all the while claiming they can't do anything about the price of gas. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/nonono.gif[/img] Give me a break!

lodom

I say no. Where there is demand, the manufacturer's will find a way to adapt, as long as the standards remain level across the field (trucks, cars, SUV's). That is my biggest concern.

2k5GTC

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Drufus @ May 3, 2006, 9:36 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
Though it was before my time, I know very well that 1970 was the last year before high performace cars started a downward trend. Emissions controls killed the cars of the 70's.

Now with all the fuel economy concerns, and many states suing the government for allowing poor economy vehicles, will there be a big change in the auto industy? I read an article saying it will take a few years for technology to reach most cars to drastically improve mileage. So will 2008 or a year in a near future put an end to the increasing horsepower trend???
[/b][/quote]


The performance cars of the 70s didn't even come close to the MPG ratings of todays cars. I had a 73 Mustang with a 351 and was lucky to get 9 mpg in that sucker. My 05 GT gets me around 20 combined driving. The new Corvette with the cyclider deactivation gets better than that. I am sure Ford and GM will be forced to look harder at thier entry level cars, as well as the big trucks/SUVs. I remember Clay Ford saying a few years ago that Ford would up the MPGs of thier bigger vehicles. I have yet to see that happen. Maybe now they will put thier money where thier mouth is. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/04.gif[/img]

Knight

The corvette doesn't have the cylinder deactivation feature like other GM cars.

2k5GTC

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Knight @ May 4, 2006, 2:40 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
The corvette doesn't have the cylinder deactivation feature like other GM cars.
[/b][/quote]

Oops! I meant "even without" the cylinder deactivation system... my bad. Thanks for pointing out the error of my ways. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rolleyes.gif[/img]

RRRoamer

There are really only two ways they are going to get better fuel economy on the larger vehicles (more than 1 or maybe 2 mpg improvement that is!)

1) Switch over to diesel. More energy per gallon. Much, much, MUCH higher compression ratios (directly impacts the engines thermal efficency) and less friction due to the much low engine speed. I would love to buy a new F150 with a V6 diesel putting out "only" 230 hp (but over 400 lb-ft of torque) and getting 25, 26 mpg in my daily commute.

2) Shrink them down and strip out all the crap they put in them now! There is no WAY a gallon of gasoline has enough energy (when released in an internal combustion engine at any rate) to get 30 mph while pushing around 4 tons of "stuff". The laws of thermodynamics says it won't happen. Not to mention just how much air those things have to move out of the way while cruising down the highway.

Personally, I am leaning more towards option 1. More an more people LIKE diesel cars and trucks in this country for many of the same reasons that they are so popular in other countries. People would not want an "Excursion" if they stripped out all the electric goodies, lightened it up by removing all the sound deading (and for the heck of it, let's get rid of all the extra weight caused by mandated air bags, antilock brakes, crumple zones and assorted other mandated safety stuff), ditched the electric (leather) seats, got rid of the 4 wheel drive that 90% of them don't ever use anyway, etc. People wouldn't want them.

Same as most of the people don't really want a hybrid right now. That is a smart solution: Pay $5k to $10k more to save a couple thousand in gas. Only to have to spend another $5k in short (relatively) order to replace all those batteries!

hi5.0

Probably won't be exactly like the 70's if Detroit can get its collective butt in gear regarding improved efficiency/fuel economy. IF it can't, then maybe we're in for a repeat. Regarding RRRoamer's post, point 2 - vehicle weights have been increasing due to technology - vehicle options/features and tougher safety standards. I would hope the automakers could find affordable ways to reduce weight without compromising safety, vehicle rigidity, or performance. Plus, the rise of the SUV as personal transportation (particularly the larger ones) put a big dent in the overall fuel economy improvement over the past 20 - 30 years.
However, in light of diesel exhaust emissions, I don't think diesel would be the (best) solution unless there is a wholesale switch to "cleaner" diesel fuels/biodiesel and exhaust particulate traps or "cats" of some sort. As for hybrid powertrains, wasn't the original intent to meet stricter vehicle emissions standards, not simply increasing fuel economy in particular? And yes, the prospect of battery replacement costs is daunting. If gas prices increase further, maybe one effect would be to wean people away from using the (big) truck/SUV like an oversized family car - if you don't use it mainly for work or hauling stuff, no need to use it.

GTJOHN

"Yes", I expect the Horse Power craze to end within the next couple of years or even sooner. But, I think we will continue to see the H.P. go up or maintain in the V6's, because of their good gas mileage. Luckily for us, V6 technology has jettisoned over the years, and newer V6's out perform V8's from just a couple of years ago.
I don't expect any of this will effect the Mustang GT/Shelby or Corvette's, but I doubt we will see DC producing a lot of rear wheel drive 340 h.p. 300C's five or ten years from now.
But, I fear it may effect budgets for producing SE's like the Boss, Mach1 etc. Thats why I want Ford to make them now, before its too late. We could also see stricter Gas guzzler laws, and then we will be paying even more for a Stang.

I guess if things get too bad, Ford & GM will discontinue cars like the Shelby & Z06, and Mustang & Corvette buyers who want great performance will have to invest money into performance parts. The one area I don't expect to see hurt by all of this is the performance parts industry.

V10

Just to make sure that we have our history straight.

Drufus is correct, the end of the original muscle car era was due to emissions and safety regulations, NOT from an energy chrisis. The first "energy chrisis" did not start until October 17, 2003 when OPEC put their oil embargo in place.

Most muscle cars were still manufactured in 1971, including Chrysler's Hemi, 429CJ, 429SCJ, Boss 351, etc. Ford killed those 3 engines in May 1971. Seconday reasons why the muscle cars were killed were dropping sales due to high insurance cost, high warranty costs and the fact that in spite of our rosy memories real muscle cars comprised only a very small overall percentage total vehicle sales. For example, from 1963 - 1971 Chrysler sold less than 10,000 Hemi engines in street cars, Ford sold less than 5,000 of the famed side oiler 427s and less than 1,500 Boss 429s.

The primary reason the muscle cars were killed was primarily due to emissions regulations that took effect for the 1972 Model year. These regulations mandated unleaded gas. Initially unleaded gas was only available in "regular" octane (what we now call 87 octane. The octane rating system changed around the same time, but that's another story). The use of unleaded killed the high compression engines as the manufacturers struggled to make engines run properly with the low octane unleaded plus a major drop in allowable tail pipe emissions.

As 2K5gtc noted about his 1973 351 Mustang getting horrible gas mileage, 1973 - 1974 were probably the worst years ever for gas mileage. In 1973 additional drops in allowable emissions caused even lower HP ratings and worse gas mileage. The 1973 - 1974 OPEC oil embargo really made life tough here. 9 - 12 MPG around town was typical for 351 Mustangs or even full size Ford & Chevy sedans with 400 CID 2 bbl carb engines.

traffic142

I think another tag into the early 70's. We have seen the mustang get bigger and bigger in overall size. The new 05 is almost as big as the 1973 model. Now also add in the move for Hybrid cars and the move to ethanol all of a sudden. I think we are in the swan song of performance again. We may not be at the 1970 already, but we are getting close. I think performance will continue in V-6's, with superchargers and turbos. V-8's are on the way out, think about it. The biggest is a 351 now with a 281 as the main stay. There used to be 460, 429,428, 427, 390 and I only mentioned fords and left out the CJ, SCJ engines. In the mid 70's most big blocks were dead, leaving only the 350 size engines out there(speaking only of chevy here). Mustangs had ony 4 bangers and sixers and finally in 75 a 302 with a wopping 122 hp. We owe a lot to the computer geeks who have allowed a computer to be able to make the most out of these new engines, not to take anything away from the designers of heads and so forth. I have wished for a Mustang with a 5.4 again with a HP of 350 or so. I say lets enjoy this while we can, I was not quite driving in 1970, but I do remember gas at .39 a gallon in 1976. now it is almost 10 times that. Grrrrr

Sharp

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Oil companies are making historic profits, all the while claiming they can't do anything about the price of gas. Give me a break!
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I couldn't agree more!

Stangers

I don't think we'll see the death of the performance car (HP)because of fuel going up.In the 60's and 70's a 300hp car was getting 9 to 12 mpg if that.Today you can get 22+ out of 300hp GT.With the hi-tech knowledge today,I'll think the manufactures can adapt.As for the SUV's?............ [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/crying.gif[/img]

BTW......gas went down around our area.....303pg down to 275pg and still droppin.....for now [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/dunno.gif[/img]

Knight Rider

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(stangster @ May 4, 2006, 9:46 AM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
Oil companies are making historic profits, all the while claiming they can't do anything about the price of gas. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/nonono.gif[/img] Give me a break!
[/b][/quote]
Especially ExxonMobil. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/nono.gif[/img] That's why people want to boycott their gas and buy from small companies. If it works, the maybe gas prices will go down. We'll just wait and see [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/headscratch.gif[/img] [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/dunno.gif[/img]