wjones14

This past Monday, July 12, 2010 was my fourth track day overall, and second at Watkins Glen. The 2005 Mustang GT did really well, my best showing at a track by far. The difference this year, besides another year of driving experience, was using ATE Super Blue DOT 4 Racing brake fluid. Last year, I went with Hawk HPS brake pads on an otherwise stock GT, and the pads were great, but during one session the brake pedal almost went to the floor at about 125 mph - the DOT 3 fluid boiled. No brake problems at all this time with the Super Blue fluid.

I still need to replace the crappy 255/50-17 all-seasons with a good set of max performance summer tires, but the car is a daily driver that sees one track day per year so not sure if I want to invest in two sets of tires. Nonetheless, with the upgraded brakes, the car definitely holds its own, and not a single car in the Novice class passed me all day - the only car that got me (in two hours of track time) was a Corvette Z06 from the Intermediate class.

I posted a video of me catching a 2010 Challenger R/T over the course of a lap. See what you think: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzxOGIeYuqQ

Katfish

Very nice, did you think you had as much power as the Challenger or better handling?

Always wonder if you see people rack up their cars at these events? Anyone drive in too deep and not able to recover?

wjones14

I think we were probably close in power. The Mustang was handling the turns better. It could be that the Mustang handles better, or it could be that I'm just a more experienced driver than him (it was his first event). What did it look like to you?

In the four events I've been to, I've only see two cars get damaged. One had to be towed away, while the other just dented his rear fender on a guardrail. I've seen maybe 4 other cars spin off the track, but not hit anything. So it's amazingly safe. However, if you search YouTube for HPDE crashes, you will see a lot. In fact, there's a Mustang guy from this forum who rolled over I think at Summit Point, and posted a video of it.

metroplex

Have you taken off the brake dust shields to improve airflow to the rotors? I am contemplating this route when I install Hawk HPS pads. The calipers have to come off in order to remove the shields.

There are lots of people that argue to keep the shields, but the fact of the matter is many OEM cars/trucks do NOT have dust shields. My 03 E-250 has 2 piston calipers all around and no shields. My 09 Cobalt SS/TC has 4-piston Brembos in the front, and no dust shields.

The brake cooling ducts are a neat idea, but it would be less expensive to just remove the dust shields IMHO.

wjones14

I didn't remove the dust shields. I think the more serious issue is the brake fluid. Last year at Watkins Glen I had fresh OEM DOT 3, and the pedal almost went to the floor once when the fluid boiled. Last year the outside temperature was about 70 degrees.

This year, I used the ATE Super Blue DOT 4, the outside temp was about 85 degrees, and I had no brake issues at all. Hawk HPS and high-temp brake fluid is a good enough upgrade for the occasional track day, in my experience.

metroplex

Car and Driver did a test on the 370Z and found that even the DOT 4 fluid wasn't enough to prevent brake fade during hard stops. They suggested looking at airflow issues for the rotors.

I inspected the stock brake shield design on the S197s and they are practically touching the front rotors. That can't be good for airflow. The Cobalt SS/TC was designed from the get-go for some fun on the track and it doesn't have shields. The E-250 was designed to haul some serious loads, no shields.

wjones14

That's cool, I'm just telling you my experience as a casual track day guy. I ran the car as hard as could this time, braked from 130 mph or so, and didn't have any fade issues like last year. It looked like I was out-braking the guy in the Brembo-equipped Challenger, didn't it?

Take off the shields if you're more comfortable doing that - they're only there to keep dust off the wheels, right?

metroplex

The Challenger weighs 4300 lb, the S197 is 3500 lb, apples/oranges unless you have a 07-10 GT500 (4000+ lb)! That said, the Challenger really needs the Brembos as does the GT500. I'm just thinking of easy but effective/reliable ways of improving the braking on the S197 GT. Better brake fluid is definitely important, I didn't mean to downplay it. I just recall C&D did a number of things: OEM pads, better aftermarket pads, better racing fluid, but they all ended up with the car losing braking functions after X number of hard stops. In the same test methodology, the Corvette Z51 and Porsche 911 brakes kept working properly even after they continued the testing. The article concluded that the aerodynamics of the car were too aggressive and prevented adequate airflow into the rotors. This is what got me thinking about the dust shields that are hugging the front rotors on our S197. Try and fit your fingers behind the rotors as if to test for grooves in the surface - I can't do it on my 07 GT.

I'm not exactly sure what the OEM dust shields do. One could argue they keep grease/contaminants off the rotors, but why do a lot of applications omit this shield? Brake dust doesn't seem logical because I get a ton of brake dust on my S197 wheels and on my Crown Vic wheels with the OEM dust shields in place - actually, it's about the same as the E-250 and Cobalt SS/TC that don't have shields.

It does appear they keep a lot of heat in the rotors by preventing free airflow through the hub (where the vents draw in cool air). A duct kit is probably the best way to go, but I don't like a lot of the duct designs (flimsy construction, complicated, high maintenance).

Watkins Glen is one of my favorite road courses.

wjones14

+1

I thought that Lime Rock Park was the ultimate when I ran that for my first track day, and make no mistake, LRP is an awesome track - fun, challenging, and borderline scary, especially the downhill corner entering the front straight. I definitely hope to run there again, and it's a good fit for the torquey Mustang with the long uphill and only one hard braking area.

Watkins Glen has many of the same features, but it has more of them and they're bigger, so it's like LRP's Big Brother.