Here's the thing. I have said it once, and I will say it again. The Camaro was never that great. Good riddance. Chevy has a halo car in the sports car realm, and it is the most dominant in it's field, the Corvette. Ford has their player, the Mustang GT. They are mutually exclusive vehicles, operating on seperate, but very similar playing fields. I wish so badly that every GM Fanboy would just let it go. Chevy fans have their car, the Vette. We have ours, the Stang. Done. I mean, you can make a lobbying effort for just about every car ever built. Do I wish they still made the Thunderbird and kept it fresh rather than killing it? Darn right, but the fact is that it ran with some big dogs and it couldn't handle it. The Camaro and Firebird tried to run with the Mustang and failed. End of story.

This isn't a rant on anyone here, just something I have been thinking about. Chevy boys will always cry that they want a Camaro and if they had a current one they would whup on the Stang. Whatever. They have the Vette, and regardless of taste in styling, it is a thoroughly dominant car for what it is. (much like the GT supercar.) Either way, the Camaro is done and gone.

 

Oh come on!!!! That is because of everyone getting the employee discount dude!
I count them out unless they make a car they don't have to give away.

 

Tell that to those in the Trans Am racing circle of the late 60s. And in case you missed it, the late stock SS and Z28 models were munching on the Cobras until the '03s came out.

I am not a Camaro fan nor did I liked its design, but in placing the two in perspective when performance is on the up front, reality is hard to deny.

 

I don't think ford would ever go back to "horse drawn carriage" suspension technology of the 19th century.

 

Thats a pretty lame statement if you ask me. The Camaro is the only real competition GM could do to rekindle the wars of the 60's. The Vette is in a different class altogether. The words "Vette" and "Stang" shouldn't be uttered in the same sentence.

 

He never put the two cars in the same sentence!

 

Never said "He" did but seems everyone wants to compare the Mustang (mostly the Shelby) to a Vette. Not a fair comparison for either car.

 

it is too late for GM...................they lost on that battle, by the time they counter, FORD will have the next genration on tap---they will not be able to touch the shelby at this point...not with an introductory craparo----

 

anyone can slap a beast of an engine in something...with a design tha tis a piece of shiat---exactly what the craparo and batmobile looked like...same as the GTO...junk....

 

Apparently reality is easy to deny.

 

I'm in total agreance with George.

The GM brother's may not have been as popular as the stang, but it sure did one heck of a job holding its own, and kicking some **** on the strip.
I really don't see any real muscle/pony car wars returning without the GM brothers.
It's a long shot, but I hope GM brings them back

On another subject, I can't wait to see DC's 2-door muscle car that will be released in 2008! C'mon Challenger!
And it's rumored that Hyundai is bringing out a rwd V8 pony car, also by 2008! C'mon Tiburon!

 

I seem to recall a recent thread here where GM was quoted as saying they were seriously considering a rear wheel drive competitor to the Mustang. Their marketing guy said they were spotting Ford 20,000 Mustangs a month and they wanted back in that segment of the market.

Motor Trend is usually a pretty reliable source of information, but remember that there's a long lead time in magazine publishing and sometimes things change between the time they sent the copy off to be printed and the time we read it. It'll be interesting to see hat GM does. They're really falling behind these days.

 

Batmobile? Is that supposed to make reference to the Firebird/TA cars? ... sounds like a silly reference for a car that looked nothing like any of the batmobiles.

 

The Camaro, very much like the Stang, had its good and not so good variants and qualities. Let us not forget that paradigm of performance engineering, the Mustang II, or even the dearly departed SN95 with its quarter century old sedan chassis. But the Mustang also had the Boss 302, GT350, SVO and SVT -- much like the Camaro had their Z28s, RSs and IROCs. Over the years, both tended to trade victories in terms of performance, both track and street.

In the end, I think the F-cars were done in by poor execution rather than overall design and concept. Their materials and construction were just atrocious by the end and had gotten a bit plump and overwrought, despite the fact that their LS1 motors and fat tires could still produce impressive numbers.

The Stang, despite a neolithic chassis and weaker motors, were a bit more liveable day to day. And while nothing that would give Honda executives night sweats, their materials and construction were at least acceptible.

If GM could produce an F-car with the material and build quality of the GTO, which are excellent, in a svelter, evocative body that's not so much a caricature of itself, they'd have a real contender. But GM management, basically under the thrall of business grads and bean counters, is lost at sea.

While they seem to understand money and marketing well enough, hence their financial responses to moving product such as rebates and employee discounts for everybody, they don't understand that it is their basic product that is sorely lacking, despite the occasional bright spots. Untill they come up with product that is designed, engineered and built to be fully on par with all the competition, they will have to continue to bribe, cajole, beg and finesse people to buy their stuff, but at ruinously unprofitable (long term) prices.

Hopefully, while GM is wasting time trying to pull their heads out of their butts and build a decent neo F-car, Ford won't fall to habit and get complacent. lazy and greedy with the Stang -- chintzing on content, putting off design and engineering updates and gouging on price. Ford's got a raging success now and quite a cash cow to prop up the insipid product lines elsewhere, but a lot of that is due to a lack of direct competition. Sounds like DC is quick to note and react to the desire for pony cars and will have one online in three years or so. GM will likely fumble around a bit longer but may snap to after all and get something online too.

Hopefully by that time, Ford will not have been coasting on the Stang's success only to see it crumble under the onslaught of much newer and presumably(?) better direct competition but rather, will be ready with a new or substantially and substantively updated Stang.

 

Changed the title to reflect what it really is.

I wouldn't exactly call motortrend a leading edge in 'telling the future'

 

Don't even count GM out. They WILL come out with another muscle car in retro style. As fuel prices rise, truck and SUV sales will keep falling. The only reason they (and now Ford and Chrysler) are offering the employee discount pricing is to clear the lots for the new model year. Ford, GM and Dodge will have to start focusing more on fuel efficient autos and "muscle cars". I personally think the "muscle care" era is back for a decade or so and GM won't give the market all to Ford. I'll bet when they do come out with a "real" muscle car with retro style it will be awesome which is good for Mustang enthusiests. Competition is ALWAYS a good thing

 

Ahh, they do race on the same tracks together, do they not? I know I've seen photos and videos.


Although I agree, they are two different vehicles, but not without a common goal, making driving a fun experince.

 

Couple of clarifications:

Yes, GM did kill the Zeta (Holden developed) platform for North America because the cars would have been too expensive. It looks like the next GTO will be built on a variant of the Sigma (Cadillac CTS) platform (Sigma Lite?). Looks like they are doing a little platform sharing (can you say Mustang/Lincoln LS/Jaguar S type?) and it also sounds like they will be modifying this platform for their other cars.

The Mustang and Corvette are in two different price classes, they are not comparable cars. The Shelby and Corvette maybe.

The former F body program manager has stated that Chevy will have a mid priced, RWD V8 coupe coming. No timeline however.

The Challenger is a go at this point, but its very early. They will be waiting for the re-design of the current 300C/Charger/Magnum platform to do it, presumably to take some weight out of it for a 2 door coupe, so you won't see a Challenger before 2008.

 

Correct however the big issue for GM is where to build the car at. There really isn't a facility to build the car at as far as I know.

 

I thought only the concept cars (which were built after the final production design was decided on) were built on the Lincoln LS/Jaguar S platform?

I know it is in a book I have at the house, I'll take a look after work.