Car and Driver does comparisons
10/5/06, 12:27 AM
#21
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Drag Strip, no care! 
Road race courses give a much fuller assessment of a cars capabilities in conditions that more closely replicate what one might encounter in the real world -- hill, dale, curves, stops, acceleration, deceleration -- often all mixed together, i.e., braking hard into a bumpy decreasing radius curve. It also tests to varying degrees a car's and drivers endurance too, often in rain and darkness too.
Drag racing, OTOH, is a much more synthetic and very constrained test of a car's and driver's abilities, basically being little more than a couple-second spurt down an utterly smooth, straight track. Pretty much the only thing tested is the car's drive train for a couple seconds under the most ideal of conditions.
I tend to notice that I drive for more than a few seconds at a time and have also noticed many turns, stops and other features in my daily driving. Thus, road racing seems to have much more relevance to how I actually drive and what I expect/hope from my ride. Thus, I find road racing much more relevant to general real world driving and a much fuller, richer test of man and machine.
But that's just me
As mentioned, the upcoming Shelby GT might have been a closer match to the 350Z, pricewise and presuambly performancewise, but that's little solace for getting whumped by the similarly priced Cobalt or RX-8.
I really think Ford needs to get more aggressive and "Bolder" in bolstering and broadening the Stang's capabilities to assure its market competitiveness, especially that it soon won't be a one-model Ponycar market.
Road race courses give a much fuller assessment of a cars capabilities in conditions that more closely replicate what one might encounter in the real world -- hill, dale, curves, stops, acceleration, deceleration -- often all mixed together, i.e., braking hard into a bumpy decreasing radius curve. It also tests to varying degrees a car's and drivers endurance too, often in rain and darkness too.
Drag racing, OTOH, is a much more synthetic and very constrained test of a car's and driver's abilities, basically being little more than a couple-second spurt down an utterly smooth, straight track. Pretty much the only thing tested is the car's drive train for a couple seconds under the most ideal of conditions.
I tend to notice that I drive for more than a few seconds at a time and have also noticed many turns, stops and other features in my daily driving. Thus, road racing seems to have much more relevance to how I actually drive and what I expect/hope from my ride. Thus, I find road racing much more relevant to general real world driving and a much fuller, richer test of man and machine.
But that's just me
As mentioned, the upcoming Shelby GT might have been a closer match to the 350Z, pricewise and presuambly performancewise, but that's little solace for getting whumped by the similarly priced Cobalt or RX-8.
I really think Ford needs to get more aggressive and "Bolder" in bolstering and broadening the Stang's capabilities to assure its market competitiveness, especially that it soon won't be a one-model Ponycar market.
10/5/06, 02:55 AM
#22
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As far as your bashing of drag racing, grow up. I don't have the money to dump on $200+ dollars a day to go play on a road course. Drag racing is plenty fun and it gets the andrenaline pumping. I feel like every post you write makes me want to throw the computer out the window. You MUST be from California. Only way you can annoy me so much.
Drag racing may be plenty fun (it is, actually), but it certainly isn't a measurement of how a car performs in spirited daily driving when you encounter things like <gasp> CORNERS...and potholes...and undulations...and falling rocks...and small animals...and - most importantly - other drivers who just got their license and decide to go out racing on the street...during the rain...and they begin swerving towards you...
There are a voluminous range of situations in the real world that would benefit from some tweaking here and there of the Mustang's suspension and brakes, in particular. The power is strong and the chassis is very, very good - why skimp on the rest? It's like going out and buying an expensive home amplifier and CD player, then hooking them up to cheap, middle-of-the-road speakers. Doesn't make much sense.
And a lot of people don't <gasp> want to mod their Stangs. They're looking for a turn key solution out of the box.
I think that may have been his point.
10/5/06, 04:46 AM
#23
Legacy TMS Member
Unless you race on the street while going to work, a fast road course time is meaningless. Drag racing and road racing (on sanctioned tracks) are fun but aren't really representative of a good car for daily driving. 500 hp is useless when Granny, Gramps, and Aunt Sally are blocking all 3 lanes on the highway going 15 mph below the limit.
10/5/06, 08:46 AM
#24
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I feel like every post you write makes me want to throw the computer out the window. You MUST be from California. Only way you can annoy me so much.
Wrong coast, grew up in suburban/rural Maryland. Started driving tractors at 7 years old -- sliding off the seat to work the clutch/brake and barely staring through the top half of the steering wheel -- and worked up from there. Got to shift it into third (top) gear when 10, a seminal life moment if ever there was one!
No racing replicates precisely what a street car encounters on the street. Guess my gist is that road racing comes much closer to that, and thus is a better overall measure of a car's capabilities, than drag racing, which basically tests just one narrow aspect of a cars performance envelope and drivers skill set.
My ideal might be something more along the lines of some combination road racing and rallying on production street cars (with necessary safety mods and bare minimal performance mods only) that are street-legally licensed. Basically the ideal of race it on Sunday, drive it on Monday.
Stang's have the straight ahead and style down pat whereas the turn, stop and other aspects of its dynamic envelope range from adequate to pretty good but really seem to be second tier concerns. While the motor is quite capable of generating great speed, the chassis and brakes are obviously quite a bit less adept at utilizing that speed.
I'd just like to see the Stang flesh out these weaker point, well demonstrated by the C&D article, so that they aren't the Stang's Achille's Heel(s) allowing a FWD 2-liter Chevy econocar have its way with it on anything other than a drag race. The potential is certainly there, what with a great motor and general chassis -- it wouldn't take Ford that much to really take it up a notch or two and turn the tables.
10/5/06, 10:06 AM
#26
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This test is bogus, here is why, LL1 is strickly under $30k
1. You CANNOT get a 350z for under $30k, much less the Track for under $30k, that model is $35,165.
2. You CANNOT get a Evo III for under $30k, much less the MR model at $36,924.
3. You CANNOT get a MX8 for under $30k, that model is $31515.
The line should be drawn at the Mustang, and compare it with the Honda, GTi, MX5 and the Cobalt.
1. You CANNOT get a 350z for under $30k, much less the Track for under $30k, that model is $35,165.
2. You CANNOT get a Evo III for under $30k, much less the MR model at $36,924.
3. You CANNOT get a MX8 for under $30k, that model is $31515.
The line should be drawn at the Mustang, and compare it with the Honda, GTi, MX5 and the Cobalt.
10/5/06, 11:20 AM
#27
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Maybe the Mustang isn't for you then. Hardcore Mustang enthusiasts have historically been "hands-on" people who aren't afraid to modify/customize their cars to their liking, whether it be for drag racing, road racing, or just looking cool.
Ford provides the basics (good horsepower, good styling, good ride/handling) and the Mustang enthusiast adds the rest to customize the car to his/her liking.
This is why the aftermarket parts scene for Mustangs is probably larger than for any other single model of vehicle made, other than the Camaro.
The Mustang has always been a more "do-it-yourself" sporty car than the imports.
For those people who want a "turn key solution out of the box" there's always the "tuner" Mustangs :Shelby, Saleen, Roush, Steeda , etc.
10/5/06, 01:23 PM
#28
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as you know nothing about me or the cars I've owned. But hey, keep on takin' that shot at the title.
On your second point: I guess it depends on what your definition of "hard core" is. The fact is that the vast majority of Mustang buyers don't mod their cars. On the other hand, buyers of Mustangs probably mod their cars more than buyers of many other vehicles - imports included - which is why Mustang owners give the impression of being more "hands-on" comparitively.
10/5/06, 01:41 PM
#29
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Vermillion06 please calm down. Your insult to Rhumb is inappropriate as he provides some of the most well spoken, intelligent, and mature posts on this site. He does not need to grow up.
What you define as a mustang enthusiast may not be what everyone else defines as enthusiast, so easy on the deity complex. As far as modding, would you please find me an unmodded Eclipse GST or GSX, how about an unmodded Supra, or RX-7 turbo? Very few of those stockers exist. On the other hand find me a 1999 Mustang GT unmodded, all over the place. Granted there are production volumes that may skew the data, but take the point. Only one of my Mustangs has been modded, but I very much consider myself an enthusiast.
Oh, dont throw your monitor, you'll hate yourself tomorrow when you need to check you email.
What you define as a mustang enthusiast may not be what everyone else defines as enthusiast, so easy on the deity complex. As far as modding, would you please find me an unmodded Eclipse GST or GSX, how about an unmodded Supra, or RX-7 turbo? Very few of those stockers exist. On the other hand find me a 1999 Mustang GT unmodded, all over the place. Granted there are production volumes that may skew the data, but take the point. Only one of my Mustangs has been modded, but I very much consider myself an enthusiast.
Oh, dont throw your monitor, you'll hate yourself tomorrow when you need to check you email.
10/5/06, 02:16 PM
#30
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Vermillion06 please calm down. Your insult to Rhumb is inappropriate as he provides some of the most well spoken, intelligent, and mature posts on this site. He does not need to grow up.
What you define as a mustang enthusiast may not be what everyone else defines as enthusiast, so easy on the deity complex. As far as modding, would you please find me an unmodded Eclipse GST or GSX, how about an unmodded Supra, or RX-7 turbo? Very few of those stockers exist. On the other hand find me a 1999 Mustang GT unmodded, all over the place. Granted there are production volumes that may skew the data, but take the point. Only one of my Mustangs has been modded, but I very much consider myself an enthusiast.
Oh, dont throw your monitor, you'll hate yourself tomorrow when you need to check you email.
What you define as a mustang enthusiast may not be what everyone else defines as enthusiast, so easy on the deity complex. As far as modding, would you please find me an unmodded Eclipse GST or GSX, how about an unmodded Supra, or RX-7 turbo? Very few of those stockers exist. On the other hand find me a 1999 Mustang GT unmodded, all over the place. Granted there are production volumes that may skew the data, but take the point. Only one of my Mustangs has been modded, but I very much consider myself an enthusiast.
Oh, dont throw your monitor, you'll hate yourself tomorrow when you need to check you email.
Although, just for clarity sake, it was Bullitt995 who made the comment about throwing the computer out the window.
10/5/06, 02:35 PM
#31
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Vermillion06 please calm down. Your insult to Rhumb is inappropriate as he provides some of the most well spoken, intelligent, and mature posts on this site. He does not need to grow up.
What you define as a mustang enthusiast may not be what everyone else defines as enthusiast, so easy on the deity complex. As far as modding, would you please find me an unmodded Eclipse GST or GSX, how about an unmodded Supra, or RX-7 turbo? Very few of those stockers exist. On the other hand find me a 1999 Mustang GT unmodded, all over the place. Granted there are production volumes that may skew the data, but take the point. Only one of my Mustangs has been modded, but I very much consider myself an enthusiast.
Oh, dont throw your monitor, you'll hate yourself tomorrow when you need to check you email.
What you define as a mustang enthusiast may not be what everyone else defines as enthusiast, so easy on the deity complex. As far as modding, would you please find me an unmodded Eclipse GST or GSX, how about an unmodded Supra, or RX-7 turbo? Very few of those stockers exist. On the other hand find me a 1999 Mustang GT unmodded, all over the place. Granted there are production volumes that may skew the data, but take the point. Only one of my Mustangs has been modded, but I very much consider myself an enthusiast.
Oh, dont throw your monitor, you'll hate yourself tomorrow when you need to check you email.
10/5/06, 03:08 PM
#32
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My bad, man. I'd been stressin' at work and shot on here at lunch to fade out for a bit, and I got two different posts confused. Sorry for the error, like BC_Shelby said it was Bullett995's.
Bullett995... what I said earlier.
Bullett995... what I said earlier.
10/5/06, 03:39 PM
#33
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I wasn't taking a shot, I was just making an observation. You just never seem to be happy with the Mustang in general.
) A perfect example is Brad, the owner of this site. I also consider myself a "hard core" Mustang enthusiast as well; my first Mustang eventually had a modified suspension and other touches of personalization, and my '06 has already been slightly modified and will get more modifications in the future.
Compare the amount of aftermarket parts available for Mustangs to other sporty cars. If there wasn't a large customer base for these items, there wouldn't be veritable cottage industry based on one car.
10/5/06, 04:53 PM
#35
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That would be a Shelby GT.
The tires are the same ones I have on my factory 18" polished bullitts. They are surprisingly good, but they are in no way true performance tires.
Brakes are the same to my knowledge.
So the suspension package which comes from ford racing is really the only advantage over a normal GT with the factory 18"s and a CAI and tune.
10/5/06, 05:23 PM
#37
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the Mustang is a sub-$30k car. All of those others ARE NOT. Now if they use a Shelby GT...THAT would be a different story.
10/5/06, 05:25 PM
#38
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10/5/06, 05:32 PM
#39
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Geez a lot of you guys have your panties in a bunch. From the factory, the Mustang GT handles pretty soft. The spring rates are too soft and the sways are punny, which results in body roll. The OEM tires are 55 series and All-Seasons; hardly ideal for handling. Lastly, the OEM brake pads SUCK. They cannot handle the heat of HARD driving, thus causing a soft brake pedal.
The Track 350Z is a great car. My brother has a 350Z touring and it would run circles around my Mustang on a road course. I plan on working on the suspension this spring, but to make it competent it's going to take roughly $2500-$3000.
The Track 350Z is a great car. My brother has a 350Z touring and it would run circles around my Mustang on a road course. I plan on working on the suspension this spring, but to make it competent it's going to take roughly $2500-$3000.
10/5/06, 05:36 PM
#40
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You mean enlighten YOU. I don't think anyone else cares.
Besides, I believe a little mystery is a good thing.
It's an awesome car. But given the marketplace, there is room for improvement. I'm not blinded by loyalty. I believe in plain talk. Looking at Ford's situation right now (largely due to 35 years of complacency), a little "tough love" is what's needed.
I believe that's what I was trying to say.
Besides, I believe a little mystery is a good thing.
It's an awesome car. But given the marketplace, there is room for improvement. I'm not blinded by loyalty. I believe in plain talk. Looking at Ford's situation right now (largely due to 35 years of complacency), a little "tough love" is what's needed.
Yes. But I don't think it's just an impression. If you go to most any amateur racing event or car show in the US besides the "import only" or brand/model specific ones, chances are many of the cars taking part in the event will be Mustangs. This is true of drag, and road race events.
Compare the amount of aftermarket parts available for Mustangs to other sporty cars. If there wasn't a large customer base for these items, there wouldn't be veritable cottage industry based on one car.
Compare the amount of aftermarket parts available for Mustangs to other sporty cars. If there wasn't a large customer base for these items, there wouldn't be veritable cottage industry based on one car.