Agent 47's New Strut Brace
10/1/07, 08:05 PM
#21
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or no good reason except you like the way it looks.
Also, many of the ones out there, while stronger I am sure, are heavy as hell. And that is not the place I want weight. The GMS piece is not too bad. (and yes, if weight was really a major concern of mine, my intake should be plastic and the plenum cover should go)
But I indeed felt a minor difference under hard cornering when sliding the car around and over rough pavement. But thats me.
Would I do it again for 50 bucks. In a hearbeat. For much more than that. NOPE.
BMW, Porsche, etc all use stress bars from the factory on many models. Hell, my jeep has one from the factory. Is it needed? Maybe not, but it is not a bad idea.
10/2/07, 01:59 AM
#22
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Hi rrobello,
I've tested my S197GT looking for movement of the strut towers and found some when the suspension was loaded up all the way and then hit some bumps and expansion joints on concrete ramps. I tested using my own car with literally the ENTIRE Steeda suspension catalog installed plus D-Specs and Pro-Kit springs on boh stock 17" Pirelli P-Zero Nero tires and 18" 275/40x18 BFG g-Force T/A KD's. To tell you the truth there is a very small amount of flex in high-g corners with these 1" expansion joint strips that hit the chassis hard when the suspension was loaded up in the corners. This is the only time I could reliably measure any significant movement of the strut towers and this movement was very small between the strut towers towards each other based on the clay method. So as far as I can tell unless the strut tie bar's holes are sized with a moderate interference fit to the strut bearing mounts studs even a perfect strut tie bar will most likely not be able to make any difference in handling or grip.
But the real question is, for a street car why bother if the flex is so small? Even if you could stop absoulutely all movement between the strut towers in the direction that a single element STB works there would not be any advantage on a street car and even less to be gained in a well prepared race car on a track. So why not spend that $250+ on parts that can actually help a driver reduce lap times? You know like spindle mounted brake ducts, stainless steel brake lines, high performance brake pads, adjustable anti-roll bar, better tires, helmet air, cool suit etc. the list of effective performance upgrades to do before a strut tie bar is very LONG in terms of peformance enhancing parts.
But I have no doubt that IF the S197 chassis could benifit from a strut tie bar the Agent 47 STB is one of if not THE best designed STB on the market. The Agent 47 STB is very well designed structurally and is the only STB that has any real potential to reduce not only the movement of the towers collapsing inward/outward but also to a lesser degree twisting, fore and aft tower movements. The reason is due to the use of all four studs and boxing in the cross bar attachment point and mounting point on each side. Good stuff but only if the S197 chassis could actually beneifit from this sort of additional structural bracing which based on my own testing in the real world, Ford's testing and the many S197 based FR500C race car teams it does not.
I would venture a guess that if you took a well prepared S197 based race car and had run the car on the track to find some baseline lap times with the Agent 47 STB installed, then removed it and checked the lap times you would see less difference than the difference between a clean windshield and a dirty one.
HTH!
I've tested my S197GT looking for movement of the strut towers and found some when the suspension was loaded up all the way and then hit some bumps and expansion joints on concrete ramps. I tested using my own car with literally the ENTIRE Steeda suspension catalog installed plus D-Specs and Pro-Kit springs on boh stock 17" Pirelli P-Zero Nero tires and 18" 275/40x18 BFG g-Force T/A KD's. To tell you the truth there is a very small amount of flex in high-g corners with these 1" expansion joint strips that hit the chassis hard when the suspension was loaded up in the corners. This is the only time I could reliably measure any significant movement of the strut towers and this movement was very small between the strut towers towards each other based on the clay method. So as far as I can tell unless the strut tie bar's holes are sized with a moderate interference fit to the strut bearing mounts studs even a perfect strut tie bar will most likely not be able to make any difference in handling or grip.
But the real question is, for a street car why bother if the flex is so small? Even if you could stop absoulutely all movement between the strut towers in the direction that a single element STB works there would not be any advantage on a street car and even less to be gained in a well prepared race car on a track. So why not spend that $250+ on parts that can actually help a driver reduce lap times? You know like spindle mounted brake ducts, stainless steel brake lines, high performance brake pads, adjustable anti-roll bar, better tires, helmet air, cool suit etc. the list of effective performance upgrades to do before a strut tie bar is very LONG in terms of peformance enhancing parts.
But I have no doubt that IF the S197 chassis could benifit from a strut tie bar the Agent 47 STB is one of if not THE best designed STB on the market. The Agent 47 STB is very well designed structurally and is the only STB that has any real potential to reduce not only the movement of the towers collapsing inward/outward but also to a lesser degree twisting, fore and aft tower movements. The reason is due to the use of all four studs and boxing in the cross bar attachment point and mounting point on each side. Good stuff but only if the S197 chassis could actually beneifit from this sort of additional structural bracing which based on my own testing in the real world, Ford's testing and the many S197 based FR500C race car teams it does not.
I would venture a guess that if you took a well prepared S197 based race car and had run the car on the track to find some baseline lap times with the Agent 47 STB installed, then removed it and checked the lap times you would see less difference than the difference between a clean windshield and a dirty one.
HTH!
and I did mention for race applications, on a street car the car is perfectly fine the way it comes so not only would you not NEED a strut brace you would also not need a Steeda CAI w/Hi-Flow, Mtr Mnts, Shifter Bushings, G-Trac Brace, HD Adj Strut Mnts, Comp Springs, Bumpsteer, FCA Reloc w/Bush Inserts, AR Bar Mnt Braces, Adj Fr AR Bar, Adj PB, H.D. PB Brace, Adj Comp UCA/UCA Mnt, Adj LCA's, Rr AR Bar w/Billet Links, BBK 62mm T/B, BMR LCA Reloc, Tokico D-Specs, FRPP CMCV, M-5230 GTA, JBA Shortys, MagnaFlow Tru-X, Diablo Predator, Meziere EH2O, KB Spindle Mnt Brake Ducts, Baer GT Plus Calipers w/2-piece 14" D&S Rotors, D&S Rear Rotors, SS Lines, Saleen HID, Short Shifter, OSRAM HID Fogs, or 275/40 g-force KD's on Forged Roush 18x10 wheels but that didnt keep you from adding any of that to your car now did it?
youd also be amazed how the smallest amount of movement or any other kind of small improvement in a car can help while racing, besides if you are building a race car and spend all that money on the mods you mention then why the heck not spend it on a strut brace as well.
and Ford has added them to cars:
the GT500 Road and Track:
The GT500 KR:
Chassis engineers worked closely with the engine department in a holistic approach to the development of the KR, tuning the suspension to best optimize the engine enhancements.
The GT500KR will feature unique spring rates, dampers, stabilizer bars, and strut tower brace, all designed specifically for the KR, to deliver the precision handling package.
The GT500KR will feature unique spring rates, dampers, stabilizer bars, and strut tower brace, all designed specifically for the KR, to deliver the precision handling package.
the GT-H:
To put that extra horsepower to the ground, the Ford Shelby GT-H also comes with the Ford Racing Handling Pack (FR3) installed, including special-tuned dampers inspired from the FR500C, lowering springs, sway bars and a strut tower brace – plus a Ford Racing 3.55:1 ratio rear axle assembly for extra off-the-line acceleration.
My simple point is that every car can be improved on here, and they all could use a strut brace or other similar reinforcement, especially for race applications.
10/2/07, 07:33 AM
#23
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Hi PonyDNA,
I agree STB's are complete snake oil in most if not all modern vehicles, we got the point. It is nice to see that your very passionate about the S197 Mustang though.
I do think they look cool, however I cannot see paying $250 for one.
I wish I had access to a tig set up so I could make them myself and sell 'em on ebay. $5 worth of supplies, sell for the bargain basement price of $30.
I agree STB's are complete snake oil in most if not all modern vehicles, we got the point. It is nice to see that your very passionate about the S197 Mustang though.
I do think they look cool, however I cannot see paying $250 for one.
I wish I had access to a tig set up so I could make them myself and sell 'em on ebay. $5 worth of supplies, sell for the bargain basement price of $30.
10/2/07, 05:15 PM
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Hi PonyDNA,
I agree STB's are complete snake oil in most if not all modern vehicles, we got the point. It is nice to see that your very passionate about the S197 Mustang though.
I do think they look cool, however I cannot see paying $250 for one.
I wish I had access to a tig set up so I could make them myself and sell 'em on ebay. $5 worth of supplies, sell for the bargain basement price of $30.
I agree STB's are complete snake oil in most if not all modern vehicles, we got the point. It is nice to see that your very passionate about the S197 Mustang though.
I do think they look cool, however I cannot see paying $250 for one.
I wish I had access to a tig set up so I could make them myself and sell 'em on ebay. $5 worth of supplies, sell for the bargain basement price of $30.
Hey don't get me wrong, some modern cars can still benifit from an STB especially if there is a way to triangulate the towers to a structural firewall or subframe. This is also still very true for many of the recent, powerfull front/all-wheel drive cars and cars with special modifications. Cars like the GT500 and KR500 etc. where the chassis was designed and produced with a lightweight 300BHP alloy engine in mind that have had a supercharged, iron block engine with twice as much power that weights 200+lbs. more in the same hole with no additional unibody reinforcement. I do not doubt that these later S197GT varients which are much heavier, much more powerfull cars can benifit in terms of chassis reliability and durability and maybe handling consistency. But the S197GT as delivered has absolutely no need nor can the suspension performance or handling be improved with a simple 2 bolt STB.
Funny you should say that, I just got back from a vist to some old friends who were also clients of mine this afternoon to say hello and see what new stuff they were in development for. My other reason for the visit was to see if I could possibly work out a deal to start designing, prototyping, testing and producing S197 suspension parts for the serious minded handling oriented folks who apparently want to buy well designed, well engineered and well fabricated suspension parts and are willing to pay for them. As you know I've been buying and installing parts for my own car largely from Steeda and installing many different name brand and no-name suspension parts on S197GT's in my garage for local car club folks and even some total strangers. I'm working on this and if it happens there maybe a new name in modern Mustang suspension in the marketplace in a few months.
I agree as I always have, that an STB does add a racey look to the engine compartment. A good STB that could actually work if there was any movement in the strut towers costs quite a bit more than $5 in raw tube and plate parts. Then there is fabrication, inspection and metal protection to worry about. But the distinction between racey and ricey is being stretched here IMO.
HTH!
10/2/07, 11:03 PM
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Hi rrobello,
Well Mustangs don't race against POS Ferrari's, Lambogini or F1 cars and BTW current F1 cars don't have STB's either. But the Porsche 997/996's, BMW M3's, Nissan 350Z's and Pontiac GTO's they DO race against can tell you that the FR500C's that have been kicking their butts for the last three years on a regular basis in the Rolex Koni Challenge Grand-Am GS class don't have STB's.
If the S197 was perfectly fine the way it came I would not have needed to install the Steeda CAI w/Hi-Flow, Mtr Mnts, Shifter Bushings, G-Trac Brace, HD Adj Strut Mnts, Comp Springs, Bumpsteer, FCA Reloc w/Bush Inserts, AR Bar Mnt Braces, Adj Fr AR Bar, Adj PB, H.D. PB Brace, Adj Comp UCA/UCA Mnt, Adj LCA's, Rr AR Bar w/Billet Links, BBK 62mm T/B, BMR LCA Reloc, Tokico D-Specs, FRPP CMCV, M-5230 GTA, JBA Shortys, MagnaFlow Tru-X, Diablo Predator, Meziere EH2O, KB Spindle Mnt Brake Ducts, Baer GT Plus Calipers w/2-piece 14" D&S Rotors, D&S Rear Rotors, SS Lines, Saleen HID, Short Shifter, OSRAM HID Fogs, 275/40x18 g-force KD's on Forged Roush 18x10 wheels and god knows what else.
The reason I would likely not put an STB in a S197 race car is when you are building a production vehicle based race car you only take stuff out and never put it back in unless it makes the car go faster, stop shorter, corner faster or last longer and on an S197 coupe chassis an STB doesn't do anything except to add weight and cost money. So if I put an STB on an S197 or FR500C race car I would no longer be building a race car but a shrine to style and fashion, not an objective performance racecar.
None of the cars that you have posted images of are race cars. They are all retail opportunities for Ford and Shelby. The fact that they are shown with STB's means that even though Ford knows for a fact that an STB does nothing significant to stiffen the car in a meaningful way or to improve objective performance numbers, performance jewelry sells cars to ignorant buyers. How else could they charge $20-$30K more for what are essentially ordinary S197GT's with hopped up engines which you can easily have built much better and produced more power yourself, a goofy looking body kits that add weight and increase aero drag and does nothing to increase down force or steering stability and plaster Shelby's name and logos which were formally owned by himself all over the interior and exterior of the car.
As to the Ford GT having an STB there is a difference. The Ford GT was designed with these supporting bars as structural elements of the chassis subframe. The S197 chassis was designed specifically to avoid the need to use this sort of external chassis brace.
The fact that many cars could be improved and made stiffer is not in dispute. The fact of the matter is that even though you could make the front of the S197 stiffer and more resistant to the towers moving inward or outward with a well designed STB the load necessary to make the S197 chassis flex the strut towers inward enough to need an STB would bottom out the suspension and probably permanently damage the chassis.
HTH!
Well Mustangs don't race against POS Ferrari's, Lambogini or F1 cars and BTW current F1 cars don't have STB's either. But the Porsche 997/996's, BMW M3's, Nissan 350Z's and Pontiac GTO's they DO race against can tell you that the FR500C's that have been kicking their butts for the last three years on a regular basis in the Rolex Koni Challenge Grand-Am GS class don't have STB's.
If the S197 was perfectly fine the way it came I would not have needed to install the Steeda CAI w/Hi-Flow, Mtr Mnts, Shifter Bushings, G-Trac Brace, HD Adj Strut Mnts, Comp Springs, Bumpsteer, FCA Reloc w/Bush Inserts, AR Bar Mnt Braces, Adj Fr AR Bar, Adj PB, H.D. PB Brace, Adj Comp UCA/UCA Mnt, Adj LCA's, Rr AR Bar w/Billet Links, BBK 62mm T/B, BMR LCA Reloc, Tokico D-Specs, FRPP CMCV, M-5230 GTA, JBA Shortys, MagnaFlow Tru-X, Diablo Predator, Meziere EH2O, KB Spindle Mnt Brake Ducts, Baer GT Plus Calipers w/2-piece 14" D&S Rotors, D&S Rear Rotors, SS Lines, Saleen HID, Short Shifter, OSRAM HID Fogs, 275/40x18 g-force KD's on Forged Roush 18x10 wheels and god knows what else.
The reason I would likely not put an STB in a S197 race car is when you are building a production vehicle based race car you only take stuff out and never put it back in unless it makes the car go faster, stop shorter, corner faster or last longer and on an S197 coupe chassis an STB doesn't do anything except to add weight and cost money. So if I put an STB on an S197 or FR500C race car I would no longer be building a race car but a shrine to style and fashion, not an objective performance racecar.
None of the cars that you have posted images of are race cars. They are all retail opportunities for Ford and Shelby. The fact that they are shown with STB's means that even though Ford knows for a fact that an STB does nothing significant to stiffen the car in a meaningful way or to improve objective performance numbers, performance jewelry sells cars to ignorant buyers. How else could they charge $20-$30K more for what are essentially ordinary S197GT's with hopped up engines which you can easily have built much better and produced more power yourself, a goofy looking body kits that add weight and increase aero drag and does nothing to increase down force or steering stability and plaster Shelby's name and logos which were formally owned by himself all over the interior and exterior of the car.
As to the Ford GT having an STB there is a difference. The Ford GT was designed with these supporting bars as structural elements of the chassis subframe. The S197 chassis was designed specifically to avoid the need to use this sort of external chassis brace.
The fact that many cars could be improved and made stiffer is not in dispute. The fact of the matter is that even though you could make the front of the S197 stiffer and more resistant to the towers moving inward or outward with a well designed STB the load necessary to make the S197 chassis flex the strut towers inward enough to need an STB would bottom out the suspension and probably permanently damage the chassis.
HTH!
yes u are so right the mustang is the best built car for racing out there, better than those POS Porsches, Ferraris, Lambos, even F1 cars that need a strut brace.
and I did mention for race applications, on a street car the car is perfectly fine the way it comes so not only would you not NEED a strut brace you would also not need a Steeda CAI w/Hi-Flow, Mtr Mnts, Shifter Bushings, G-Trac Brace, HD Adj Strut Mnts, Comp Springs, Bumpsteer, FCA Reloc w/Bush Inserts, AR Bar Mnt Braces, Adj Fr AR Bar, Adj PB, H.D. PB Brace, Adj Comp UCA/UCA Mnt, Adj LCA's, Rr AR Bar w/Billet Links, BBK 62mm T/B, BMR LCA Reloc, Tokico D-Specs, FRPP CMCV, M-5230 GTA, JBA Shortys, MagnaFlow Tru-X, Diablo Predator, Meziere EH2O, KB Spindle Mnt Brake Ducts, Baer GT Plus Calipers w/2-piece 14" D&S Rotors, D&S Rear Rotors, SS Lines, Saleen HID, Short Shifter, OSRAM HID Fogs, or 275/40 g-force KD's on Forged Roush 18x10 wheels but that didnt keep you from adding any of that to your car now did it?
youd also be amazed how the smallest amount of movement or any other kind of small improvement in a car can help while racing, besides if you are building a race car and spend all that money on the mods you mention then why the heck not spend it on a strut brace as well.
and Ford has added them to cars:
the GT500 Road and Track:
The GT500 KR:
The Shelby GT coupe and vert:
the GT-H:
The SuperSnake will also come with a strut brace and the Ford GTs as well, which were built better than the Mustang to begin with.
My simple point is that every car can be improved on here, and they all could use a strut brace or other similar reinforcement, especially for race applications.
and I did mention for race applications, on a street car the car is perfectly fine the way it comes so not only would you not NEED a strut brace you would also not need a Steeda CAI w/Hi-Flow, Mtr Mnts, Shifter Bushings, G-Trac Brace, HD Adj Strut Mnts, Comp Springs, Bumpsteer, FCA Reloc w/Bush Inserts, AR Bar Mnt Braces, Adj Fr AR Bar, Adj PB, H.D. PB Brace, Adj Comp UCA/UCA Mnt, Adj LCA's, Rr AR Bar w/Billet Links, BBK 62mm T/B, BMR LCA Reloc, Tokico D-Specs, FRPP CMCV, M-5230 GTA, JBA Shortys, MagnaFlow Tru-X, Diablo Predator, Meziere EH2O, KB Spindle Mnt Brake Ducts, Baer GT Plus Calipers w/2-piece 14" D&S Rotors, D&S Rear Rotors, SS Lines, Saleen HID, Short Shifter, OSRAM HID Fogs, or 275/40 g-force KD's on Forged Roush 18x10 wheels but that didnt keep you from adding any of that to your car now did it?
youd also be amazed how the smallest amount of movement or any other kind of small improvement in a car can help while racing, besides if you are building a race car and spend all that money on the mods you mention then why the heck not spend it on a strut brace as well.
and Ford has added them to cars:
the GT500 Road and Track:
The GT500 KR:
The Shelby GT coupe and vert:
the GT-H:
The SuperSnake will also come with a strut brace and the Ford GTs as well, which were built better than the Mustang to begin with.
My simple point is that every car can be improved on here, and they all could use a strut brace or other similar reinforcement, especially for race applications.
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