Decipher

K, cool. You had me fooled there.

V10

Do you understand the hydrogen is energy negative?

That is you cannot drill a hole in the ground and pump hydrogen out of it. You have to consume as much energy (if not more) to create hydrogen ( splitting it out of water molecules, separating it out of the atmosphere or whatever). So to create hydrogen you have to burn just as much oil, build nuke plants or build more hydro-electric plants.

Think of hydrogen as an energy transport medium, NOT a source of energy. The only reason for it is to have zero emissions cars in high density population areas.

I've been hearing and reading for 30 years that the gasoline piston engine will be gone in 10 years. Somehow I have the feeling that the piston gasoline engine will be around for many years after I'm gone.

GhostTX

Yup...what V10 said. You'd have to consume just as much fossil fuels if not more to produce enough hydrogen to power almost the equilvalent number of cars that would have used the fossil fuel you just used.

ManEHawke

K, cool. You had me fooled there. [/b][/quote]
Hey Decipher did you see that PBS special on the alternative fuel by any chance.

justgreat

i wouldn't be worried about the durability of a manual and it's clutch..the components are pretty robust...the problem comes usually from the operator...it does take a deft hand and foot to properly launch a manual and still have a clutch left after 90k miles...there's no reason why a clutch shouldn't go that long...also...there's no doubt about it: an automatic will shift at blazing speeds under full throttle...there's now way mortal man will shift faster. BUT, if you have never double clutched from 3rd into 2nd and dove into a tight corner and let the tail hang out as you clip the apex and nail it, you have not lived, believe me. there are some things that an auto just can't do. jackg 90seville 94k

t69r00p69

I think you used the wrong term in "double clutch" from 3rd to 2nd, but I can still see what you mean.

GhostTX

No...I believe he meant "double clutch"

Ah...all these auto-trannies we have to educate...

scottie1113

Double clutching and heel and toe braking make for a perfect way to set up for corners. Done smoothly, it really puts a smile on your face. I learned to do this with my first car, which had a non synchro first gear, and I didn't stop until I bought my first auto in my vert a couple of years ago. I still know how it's done.

Sadly, it seems to be a dying art.

Decipher

Hey Decipher did you see that PBS special on the alternative fuel by any chance. [/b][/quote]
Yup, with Alan Alda..

ManEHawke

Double clutch upshifts are unecessary today btw. Our synchros do it all for us. Downshifting and heel & toing is easier on the tranny if you dble it.
Not sure how captain obvious this is, but just felt like posting.

scottie1113

Double clutch upshifts are unnecessary. You're right about syncros doing it for us, but double clutch downshifting has always been been the hallmark of a good driver in my book.

Learn to do it. Your satifaction level will increase, and you'll dazzle your friends.

Dan

There is no need to double-clutch IMO. You can learn to do it just to know....as well as it helps you better understand the tranny mechanics, but other than that, I wouldn't bother.

Plus, you then have to clutch in/out twice instead of once which may decrease the clutch's life.

Plus, unless you're good/very smooth, I would't want to be a passenger with someone who double-clutched all the time.

rhumb

While the new 5 spd ATX ought to be pretty impressive, I'll bet it's only a couple of ticks off the 5spd MTX's acceleration times, I think Audi's DSG technology will really be the wave of the future: creamy smooth auto shifts if cruising or near instantaneous manually activated shifts when hauling the oats, all with MTX level mechanical efficiency. Not sure how a DSG tranny would fare in the narrow, artificial confines of a drag strip, but in the vast majority of real world driving, that technology is damned impressive.

I must agree though, regardless of objective criteria, it is damned satisfying to stir one's own gears.

justgreat

no double clutch is what i meant....every car i have driven, with a manual, will benefit from a double clutch on a hi-rpm downshift. it's not to say that you MUST downshift when the revs are high and you want to throttle steer through a turn in a lower gear, but believe me, THAT kind of driving pretty much necessitates a double clutch on a hi-rpm down shift if you want the synchros and the gears to last 90k or better. normal type driving is totally different, there's no real load put on the synchros when the tranny is shifted normally...what i'm talking about takes a split second if it's done right and even at high revs, it's a knife through butter.

normal type driving..low rpm shifts, it's not needed. jackg 90seville 94k

justgreat

another thing about clutches, i drove an alfa romeo for over 90k miles just like i described, double clutching on hi=rev downshifts and heal and toe (well in my case it was the sides of my foot rather than heal and toe)
and sold the car with the original clutch and gears...no maintenance required on either. double clutching will NOT cut down on the life of the clutch, in my experience. riding the clutch at a traffic light or improper launches will dramatically shorten the life of the clutch. jackg 90seville 94k

Tone

Interestingly, I've read a couple of articles on the new Aston Martin DB9 refer to its 6-speed auto, which has been programmed to act like a automated manual, including matched-rev downshifts and a willingness to hold a gear right up to the rev limiter without an upshift.

The quote from C&D:

"The first critical decision for the driver is to choose between changing gears manually via the steering-wheel paddles and selecting automatic "drive." For the DB9, ZF has doctored its familiar automatic, here called Touchtronic 2, so that it can perform like the electrohydraulic shift of the clutch-pedalless manual gearbox used in the Vanquish. It blips the throttle on downshifts and swaps gears the instant either the upshift or downshift paddle is activated. In contrast to drive modes that slide into the next gear at 6500 rpm, Touchtronic 2 refuses to upshift, even when the howling V-12 hits the soft 6900-rpm cutout in sport mode."

From http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?se...article_id=8115.

Now, I don't think this very tranmission is going to find its way into the Mustang, but I do think these features are software-based, so a similar approach could be possible.

Sounds like as the transmission is as good an automatic could get - all you'd be missing is the tactical joy of a good manual, but you'd get a ton of flexibility and convienence in the trade.

adrenalin

I have no idea what you guys are talking about as far as double-clutching but it sounds like a heck of a lot of fun to try.

justgreat

more tranny esoterica...gm and ford are combining resources as we speak to design a new six speed auto that will be used by both companys in various applications. i haven't read about the aston martin auto but someone mentioned about the smg by audi and that thing is one cool auto-manual (this is a true manual with no torque converter).
it has two clutches: one for the gear that you are in and one for the gear selected, so that when the shift is made, it is virtually seamless...no bumps, no hiccups and no lurching. that is one well engineered tranny. jackg 90seville 94k

bghiggins

Why would anyone buy a muscle car with an automatic?? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of it?

crazyhorse

I'm with you. The joy of the clutch is the point of a sports/muscle car. I'm sure the SMG are nice, but, the clutch puts you more in tune with the engine. SMG just lets you tell the tranny when to shift. Not quite the same. Unless you are a full time racer trying to get every second you can or live in heavy traffic, the SMGs are not as much "FUN". I have driven both M3s (manual and SMG). The manual was much more satisfying.