M3hunter

For the first time I went with my '11 5.0 (with the Brembo pkg) to the track, it was a DE event from my local PCA (this is done in a local airport). My Strano's adjustable sway bars were set front middle and rear soft. The car behaved very good without the TC. At first I had 35 psi on all my 275/40R19 Michelin Pilot SS, after hot laps we had to let go some psi (it reached about 40 psi hot) down to 39 psi front & 38 psi back, because it began to lose traction, and then after it, it really improved. At the end of the day, I went solo VS a BMW M3 (V8) with a experienced driver with mods in his suspension, he ended his time at .59 secs. and I was behind at .60 secs, after several hot laps behind him, I had to leave the track because my brakes faded severely.

My instructor recommended the following:
-To set the front bar softer (he did not like the feeling of the steering while testing my car).
-Align my car.
-Flush the brakes
-Change the front brake pads

I also had the opportunity in a long stretch to try the top speed of my car, I reach 145 MPH (like mentioned on several magazines), the car was OK, just felt strong wind noise, and I could see some movement on the hood. After I reached that speed, I did not felt that the limit was because it was set to that top speed by the manufacturer, but instead it was limited by the Mustang's limited aerodynamics.

Guys based on your experience:
-Which front brake pads do you recommend for Street & occasional track time, that will not fade (without too much noise from them)?
-Do you think I should use synthetic brake fluid?
-Any alignment that you could recommend for Street & Track (I have Sam Strano's adjustable sway bars, KONI STRT's shocks, STEEDA sport springs, GT500 shock mounts, 275/40R19 Michelin Super Sport tires mounted on the stock Brembo handling pkg. wheels).
-Which PSI do you recommend for the track?

dmichaels

Great to hear you got the car to the track! Sounds like you had a great time and caught “the bug.” I know the feeling… very well…

To address some of your questions:
Brakes will absolutely fade quite quickly on these cars when driven hard. They are heavy and build speed very quickly. If you plan on doing more track days I would HIGHLY recommend the below:

1. Track pads front and rear – I have run Pagid RST2 fronts with RS56 rears and Raybestos ST43 rears with Hawk DTC70 fronts. The Hawk/Raybestos combo worked really well for me and seem to last longer with my driving style than the Pagids. Lots of guys like Carbotech pads as well, such as XP20 fronts and XP12 rear or something along those lines. The difference is ENORMOUS.
a. There really are not any pads that can do regular street duty AND excel at the track. The Brembo’s are really easy to swap pads in though, so get a set of track only pads for the fronts at least. The rears you can probably get away with driving daily some “endurance” track pads without much noise, dust, or rotor wear. They are more of a pain to swap…

2. High temp fluid, such as Motul RBF600 or (if you want the best), Castrol SRF. I run the SRF and have had good luck with it. The big advantage is its wet boiling point of ~525F, which is ~100F higher than any other fluid on the market. Allows for the brakes to be flushed once a year for the average driver, rather than every event or every other event with Motul

3. Front brake cooling – this is a must have in my opinion. I have a thread out there on piecing the kit together and then modifying it. PM me if you want more details. It makes a huge difference

Regarding alignment – if you run a square setup (which you are with the 275’s all around), I would not go with too much negative camber up front, as that will increase front grip more and could make the car oversteer more than you want. I have my car on a 275 square setup right now with no camber adjustments and I think it’s quite neutral overall. I also have a staggered setup that I ran a lot last year (275 rear 255 front) and that pushed a lot more, so if I were to continue running staggered I would have to make adjustments to dial in a little more oversteer. Handling is a tough one because different drivers like different setups. I have a friend who loves a very tail happy car, so he would want a very soft front sway to increase front grip, stiff rear sway, and lots of negative camber up front on the Mustang. I have stock sways with my Koni’s and SR springs and find the car handles the way I like it. For now at least… and I’m working with in a budget…

Regarding tire pressure – that is an art that I won’t pretend to be highly knowledgable on. I will say that it’s dependent on the track as different tracks lead to different tire temps and differnet pressures. In general. I try to aim for ~35psi hot with my street tire setup when I use that at the track, and more like 32psi hot with my slicks. The slicks I’m really just learning though. Depending on the track, I’ll often have to set the front left a couple psi lower when cold, as that tire heats up the most (for a clockwise track, especially Limerock Park which is brutal on the left front tire). Best thing to do is to grab tire pressures right after each session and take a couple notes as to how the car felt (did it get greasy? Start to oversteer more? Understeer more? What does tire wear look like? Over the arrows? Not hitting the arrows?) If you are really inspired to get it right, start getting tire temps at the inside edge, middle, and outside edge to see how heat is distributed across the tire. Then find a tire expert to talk to. There are quite a few out there.

Feels good keeping up with “better” cars and more expensive “track worthy” cars with the Mustang. I know the feeling well. The DE events are 90% driver usually, so it can be very rewarding keeping pace with the Porsches and BMWs and such.

Let me know with any questions. I’ve been tracking the Mustang for 2 seasons now (and have a couple more seasons prior to that in other cars).

M3hunter

Thanks DMichaels, great suggestions!
I used to track a '02 Porsche Carrera in the same place. Porsches & Mustangs are very different animals very different to track them and take advantage of them. Porsches are very light and love curves, you can really get all the juice from the apex, they like more throttle, and on the Mustang you need to enter slower and hit the gas quickly at the exit, the Mustang felt heavy for this type of track but takes advantage of all the straights, a lot of torque of the 5.0, probably a 3.50 or the stock rear gear will be better than my 3.73 at this track.
But this 5.0 gave a good fight to the M3, maybe with brake improvements is going to probably beat that M3 that is a very balanced sport car.

Mr. V

I know this is off topic but your post gave me a couple of questions.

What do you think of your Strano sways? I'm considering this as my next mod.

My other question was in regards to dmicheals recommendation on brake cooling. This was on my list but I've gotten conflicting reports as to its effectiveness. Could you share more about your experience with your car before and after this mod.

5.M0NSTER

Congrats on taking the Mustang to the track! Sounds like you had a lot of fun!

Proper pads will make a HUGE difference like dmichaels said. I'm on of the people who preffers Carbotech. I use XP10s up front, but I'm yet to change the rears. They've worked pretty well for me so far after 4 days of road racing in my 14.

My recommendation would be to do Xp10s or 12s up front, and AX6 on the rear. AX6's are tame enough to use daily without destroying the rotors. Then swap out the stock brembo pads up front for a proper race pad like XP10 or 12 the weekend before your event. It's not too much work to do it.

AX6 are fade resistant to 1100F (compare to 800 of the stock pads), XP10s are fade fade free to 1650F, and XP12s go up to 2000F before fading. I've experienced no fade at all with XP10s.

Brake fluid is also very important like dmichaels mentioned above!

M3hunter

The biggest improvement will happen after you replace the shocks & springs, then wider wheels and tires and the adjustable bars will help you tune the balance of your car for better handling, the adjustable swaybars will be a good investment if you like to take your car to the track

dmichaels

Do you have the Torsen rear diff? I don't remember if that came with the Brembo package or just the Track Pack... I find it works very well putting the power down just past the apex in most corners.

Yes, the Porsche is definitely a different animal overall though. Just being lighter helps so much. I've got a number of things planned for my car this winter to try and drop some weight...

Some other good suggestions above as well.

dmichaels

I only ran the car two days without brake cooling - both were at Watkins Glen last year. I had fresh Motul RBF600 fluid and Pagid pads all around. I had massive brake fade within 10 minutes of each session. In the paddock, I basically put the pedal to the floor just to slow the car into my parking space.

This past year, I had cooling (although also had a bent rear axle which was creating massive heat in the rear), and I could go about 12-15 minutes before starting to have fade, and then if I ran an off pace lap, the brakes would pretty much come back.

After that, I reworked the cooling to significantly larger inlets up front, and on my most recent outing I had not a hint of fade all day (although at a different track that is less harsh on brakes... but still had the bent axle there).

Friends with Boss 302's have registered higher rear rotor temps (via IR gun) than front rotor temps with cooling, compared with significantly higher front rotor temps if not running cooling. I guess I could run an experiment and block off the cooling ducts and do 10 mins, check rotor temps, then do the same with the cooling unblocked. I don't have a IR temp gun though at the moment, but could probably borrow one next year

I also have added rear brake cooling, which might end up being excessive now that I found the rear bent axle and had it replaced. I think that will clear up the braking issues I had.

I also found that running slicks seem to be easier on my brakes, at least this past season. Seems counter intuitive, but it's probably again related to my bent axle and basically creating massive heat on that rotor and engaging ABS on that one wheel...

Anyways, the ducting makes a huge difference if you track the car hard and regularly. I'd highly recommend it.

M3hunter

That is a good observation DMichaels,

Apparently both packages were the same but now that I read the specs of the Track Package, it also gained on that year the torsen rear differential (like the one in the BOSS), engine cooler and upgraded radiator.

Mine does not have the torsen, and my car did not overheated, but the torsen should be very handy on the curves.

Another advantage related to the Mustang VS Porsche on my own experience: Labor, parts, mods, repairs, etc. Will be much cheaper with the Mustang, right there is great advantage for the ones that take their car to experience the tracks compared to the ones driving expensive euro sport cars, does not matter the year of the car, cost will be the same, VERY EXPENSIVE to maintain.

M3hunter

Probably I will need to implement the brakes ventilation ducting.

I also don't know if with the cervinis lip spoiler somehow it blocked the ventilation toward my brakes, at least in normal city and under road driving did not feel any difference.

kcoTiger

I've run my 500 hard on stock pads with racing fluid and woven steel brake lines. Got rid of the fade instantly and completely. Upgrade your brake lines.

M3hunter

I will also check the option of steel brake lines. Thanks!

Joeywhat

If his problem is fluid fade, then yes that can help immensely.

However if his problem is pad fade then that won't do much good.

5.M0NSTER

Beat me to it . SS lines will make the pedal a bit stiffer, but won't change fade. Fade comes from either friction material (overheated pads) or possibly vapor lock (boiling brake fluid).

M3Hunter, first order of business is pads and fluid. Brake lines will help firm up the pedal later on, but they typical don't make THAT much difference.

dmichaels

Agree with above. Pads, fluid, lines in that order. Brake cooling in there so
somewhere too. All depends how hard you push the car.

5.M0NSTER

Good plan. See how well the pads fluid and maybe new lines work, and if fade is still a problem then go for cooling. If you push hard in and deep into the brake zones, like all the way to the last marker you'll likely need cooling. But if your more conservative and start braking at 2nd or 3rd marker you may not need it.

Also it may be a good idea to check what temp the calipers get to. If they run close to or over 475F that's getting too hot. Here is a cheaper alternative to IR gun. I'm planning on using these next season.

http://www.vorshlag.com/product_info...roducts_id=708

PJRManagement

---
^ +1 Tiger - For my 2011 GT, I installed SVT GT500 14" 4-piston Brembos, with SVT pads (front & rear), and Goodridge steel lines (I have an older TMS thread on this). This is a Ford Racing package upgrade. So same as 2010-2012 GT500 equipment set-up. I also upgraded to DOT4 synthetic fluid. Awesome for street and track, without having to swap out pads (I run about 4 track days per year). A lot of brake dust, but great performance overall. One more thing, if you want longer sessions at the track, work on 'saving' your brakes...try some sections and turns with no braking; coast for 100 feet at the end of a long straight before the braking zone; pay attention to the 'cool down' lap and try to really cool them. These occasional tricks will keep your brakes strong for the entire session, and the entire day.

dmichaels

Good call on the temp tabs. We use them at work for engine tests and I have meant to put some on my calipers and rear diff multiple times. Just have to remember to actually bring some home... But yes good indication of temps reached

Torino545

Great stuff here. One note, soft front bar can lessen grip int the front. As you roll, you also lose camber. I had a long talk with Strano about how to set my car up and found that if you're in the ballpark, as others have said, the fine tuning is totally personal, you have to know what you want to fix/improve before you should make changes. I really like EBC Bluestuff pads so far. With no cooling and ATE super blue, it took a few hot laps at mid ohio to get fade, then one 80% to get them back. Never had fade at Barber or Pittrace but my vmax at these two is much lower. Trying cooling ducts and the Brembo fluid this season. Might try Orangestuffs if I still get fade. I have been using a staggered tire setup on (4) 10" gt500's, with 275's R6's in the front and 295's in the rear.

Trying 295/40 R6's this season in a square setup. They cleared in low speed auto cross type maneuvers so far.. Hopefully addressing the gear problem a little . 3.73's do seem just about half a gear short pretty often..

killaz05

Hey guys, well coming up next year I plan on taking my car to a few track days as long as finances keep on track. Figured since all the mustang racing experts are on this thread, why not ask. I already have Autocrossed my car for a year and have the itch for more. Obviously I will need better rubber which is on its way but I was curious about brakes since that is what the topic of this thread is about. Normally Gt parts will fit the v6 quite easily but I am having a hard time finding a kit for all four corners. There is the 6-piston gt500 brembo upgrade but it says it only fits GT and above cars. There are front brake kits but I don't want to run my stock rear brakes with upgraded fronts. I am already noticing brake fade after about three autocross runs so I know I will be in trouble on a full on track. What would you guys recommend for a brake setup. I am hoping that my lighter weight will help me around the track.