Which tires were you using?

Exciting!

I'm spending the day in the office shoveling paper.

Running the Nittos. At lunch now. No time to swap the Hoosiers before 1. Clicked off a 1:54.7 first session on the big track.....0.4 faster than my best lap ever in the GT500.....GPS said top speed 142 even though speedo showed over 150 ...... this car is awesome ....The best comment of the day so far from a Porsche driver I passed "wow you guys were running a lot faster than I thought you would":dunno:

Nice work...you shooting in-car video? Can't wait for TracKey!

Holy cow!!! 2 seconds better than the GT500 and with only a little seat time? How much faster do you think you'll be once you're very familiar with the Boss?

Buddy of mine just got to drive one at Hallett and commented on how well it pulled in 4th.

that is funny, at my track day all of the instructors race spec boxter class around the country. they were all nice, but thy asked who all has "american iron" and then started giving all these warnings about understeer, bad breaks, poor handling and being careful. sitting in the paddock waiting to go the head instructor walks up and goes, wow this car has real brakes on it. my instructor drove the first two laps and was telling me how he wasn't going to push it because the brakes "will fade" after two turns he goes wow the brakes are great and the car is so neutral and them boom we were hauling arse around that track like he was crazy. i was scrambling trying to find something to grab. he said probably five times in two laps how great the car handles and how neutral it is.

Coming from an Evo, my impression was the the American Muscle cars were more oversteer, lots of torque available from turn in thru mid corner and track out. I always witnessed Vipers and Vettes going off, with amateur drivers of course.

The car handles very neutral and is easy to induce oversteer on corner exit if you want to. The Porsche folks I run with at the track now know this car is the "real deal" based on my lap times with stock tires.

What a bunch of strokers

Not shocking though.

I only had a chance to run the Nittos. They combined the groups to make up for lost time so we were running 25 minute sessions with 5 minutes between two groups. I barely had time to check pressures, refill the gas tank and down a Gatorade between sessions, let alone swap tires. I'm tired! Wow what fun though. I think my friend and I in his 5.0 (with a lot of the Boss parts) repped the Boss pretty well. All day long there were M3 and Porsche guys coming up to look at the cars and commenting about how fast they were. We really had a good time even though we got rained out of Saturday. I think what surprised them the most is that we pretty much sat out Saturday in the rain while about half of them ran. I think they mistook us for "waxers" even though almost universally the ones we talked to that ran in the rain said they wished they hadn't. The two that put theirs into the wall really wished they hadn't :rofl2: I learned a while ago that there's just no upside to running HPDE in the rain. You can go faster on the interstate on street tires. :dunno:

It does pull well in 4th. It still pulls pretty well in 5th too. I pulled to about 7100 in 5th before lifting heading into turn 1. That's somewhere around 148 mph on the 26.3" rear tires I was running. It was still pulling hard, but you just can't screw up 1 or you're in the woods which makes for a bad day. I'm going to put the Laguna Seca spoiler on to try and get more downforce so I can take 1 deeper. It has a pretty good bank to it so it's the perfect corner to take advantage of additional aero. For reference I hit 160 mph in the GT500 before lifting in Turn 1 so talk about pulling! The Boss handled the corners so much better though that I made up all the time there and then some.

Sounds like a fun day. Those were the NT05's? Did you pass any GT3's out there?

Actually 0.4 seconds faster, but that was on my first session! I ran several 1:55s along with the 1:54.7 so it was consistently fast. I only ran 1:55.1 in the GT500 once and otherwise was 1:56-1:58. Unfortunately the rest of the day I kept running into traffic so never got another "clean" lap, but there's definitely more there with more seat time.

At least 3 or 4 colors of them :jester: There was a really fast GT3 RS though and he got by me. It was completely track prepped though and I'm sure cost 4 to 5 times the Boss.....at least.

Tires were 555RII

There weren't any yahoos with video cameras around :poke:

There were several places where TracKey would have helped I'm sure. The short straight from 3 to 4 required me to shift 3rd to 4th and back to 3rd fairly quickly. I had to go up to 4th just as I entered 6 and was a little low on torque through 7 and 8 but they're pretty fast rhythm corners so not a big deal. It's just that going through 9 under the bridge I felt low on torque....I would get into 5th again about halfway to 10 then have to bang back through 4th to 3rd to head into the front straight. I'm really curious to see if TracKey can help pull through some of those spots a little harder.

This is just for you Drew. One of the guys at the track was shooting pics and sent me a few of the Mustangs at BIR. My favorite was the first one from the one session we ran on the short track picking my way through traffic. After the track dried out we moved to the big track where the rest of the pics are shot. My buddy's driving the Grabber Blue GT.

Nice #9. Hey did you pass that 997 GT3 in the first photo? ;) Is your friend running the same wheel/tire setup as you? I like the black wing and mirror shells on your friends car. All he needs are some C stripes.

I am in the process of passing him on the left after passing the other three cars previously.

He's running a square setup with Enkei 18 x 9.5 PF01 (45mm offset) on 275/40/18 NT01s. He has the Boss front spoiler, Laguna Seca wing (ordered for my car), Torsen diff, Steeda CAI and tune, MM c/c plates, Steeda sport springs, Koni Yellows, adj 35mm front sway bar and 22 mm rear bar. He's going to order the Boss intake this week. Yep all he needs now are some C stripes :heh:

Passing a 997 GT3 is pretty impressive in my book. Did you get a chance to pass any Z06's?

No Z06s out there this weekend. The only Z06s I'll pass are completely stock and/or driven below their capability. Physics rule. 3100 lbs, 505 hp, an inch more rubber and low center of gravity.

Ford just needs to give us an aluminum frame track car that doesn't cost $150k ;)

NIIIIIIIIIIICE. I will be on-track again in September...just biding my time. Got my budget all set up for camber plates, tires, ducts, trans scoop, etc etc etc...It's been a long hiatus.

I will be heading back to some familiar tracks so it will be easy to compare laptimes...I'm hoping I can run the same or better as our competition car that has a similar power-to-weight.

So could any of those Porsche guys drive or were you just navigating a bunch of rolling chicanes?

:rofl2: Yes there were some very good drivers. I was bouncing between run groups based on the schedule and I think this one was the intermediate group. Had a lot of fun playing with a gutted 3 series BMW later in the day. I think he said the car weighed under 2500 lbs so it was formidable. I was definitely the fattest girl at the dance at 3600+ :heh:

Yeah those E36 and E46 Bimmers can be really fast just due to their increased corner speeds from lighter weight/less inertia. VERY fast in the hands of a capable driver.

Yea I just marvel at their line. Getting the inside front up off the ground on almost every turn is pretty cool to watch.

We've already lost one mustang driver that converted to their "dark side". It is a powerful force :)

If it makes you feel any better, I did show two new M3s who's Boss Sunday :jester:

Nice!! Me and a buddy (2011 M3 owner) are going to Millville NJ in September lightning & thunderbolt speedway. I keep busting his chops about how nice his car is going to look......in my rear view mirror!

Don't you mean inside front tire. :D

Also, doesn't the GT come with a 24mm rear bar? Did your buddy swap to a 22mm to run a square setup?

:doh: yes

Yep he switched to Strano's 22 mm adj rear bar.

But then you have guys like me who not necessarily converted but share their enthusiasm for both marques.

By the way, even a race-prepped E30 can mow down some of the exotics, at least in the twisties. Of course the E30 loses to the high HP cars' straight-line handling.

And it is possible to lift both inside wheels, with just a little help from the inside curbing at, say, Road Atlanta, turn 3. :steering:

I battled with an E30 through all of 2010, I know that they, too can be quite fast.

For the record thanks for your info which was great!!
As far as the Boss not making power above 7500, it actually make a surprising amount of power all hte way to 8250. When we ran the car while tuning Lund removed both the soft and hard limiters and the car spun to 8250 on one run. The power curve looked the same as my dyno in the post below...only higher! Also these cars will respond well to intake, ignition timing, cam timing, and octane changes. With only very minor tuning and an intake we made over 30rwhp. Add the o/r x and mufflers and we picked up a couple more. :nice:

https://themustangsource.com/f813/ev...le-now-494520/

I cant figure out how to post only the dyno, so maybe someone could help a brother out!!:doh:

Andy

Andy
Thanks for the info. I thought 7800 would be the top. This motor is amazing for a 41K car.

http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphot..._5188840_n.jpg

Andy's Dyno chart.

Thanks!!!:beer: This was run to 7800 and you can see the HP curve stays VERY level at these rpm levels unlike the stock Coyote. This Roadrunner engine was made to REV!!

What org are you running with? I should have my car by then and am looking to get back there in September! Lightning is way cooler than Thunderbolt, btw.

Nothing like a high revvvving V8, but at what expense - especially for road racing.

BTW, looks like the stock curve has flattened to its designated redline, right?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 2006stiguy (Post 6094379)

Thanks!!! This was run to 7800 and you can see the HP curve stays VERY level at these rpm levels unlike the stock Coyote. This Roadrunner engine was made to REV!!

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Andy, a few comments about your dyno data.

I am not quite sure of what is being presented in the graph. The legend indicates “Run #1 CO-Boss-302 (Boss 30 Stock” is depicted in red color, “Run #2 CO-Boss 302 (Boss30 Custom Tune with VCT Changes” is depicted in green color and “Run #3” in blue color is untitled and thus unknown. The only colored lines represented are red (presumed to be “stock” engine horsepower) per the legend and blue (engine torque of unknown configuration per the legend). You can assume anything you want from the curves and delta’s are shown between the lines, however, what configurations are represented by the data is certainly not clear and contradicts that which is presented in the graph legend.

Let’s assume for talking purposes the upper line is representative of the custom tune and the lower lines are the stock engine data. You state, “This was run to 7800 and you can see the HP curve stays VERY level at these rpm levels unlike the stock Coyote.” The stock engine data only goes out to 7300 rpm. It is unclear why stock data was not taken out to the OE rpm limit of 7500. I believe both the soft and hard ECU engine speed limits are above 7300 rpm in the stock engine calibration. But the data is what it is.

The stock engine drops 0.5% in power and 4.3% in torque from 6800 to 7300 rpm while the tuned engine drops 1.5% in power and 11.7% in torque from 6800 to 7800 rpm. Thus I am not sure how your statement of horsepower stability is accurate. The tuned Coyote drops significant power (and torque) relative to the stock engine over the tested rpm bands. Because the rpm limit for the tuned engine was raised over the stock, in the speed range of 7300 to 7800 rpm the tuned engine looses 1.3% in horsepower and 3.5% in torque. Again your data shows both parameters are definitely trending DOWN, not up or even flat.


As my discussions (chronicled in a previous post) with actual Ford Coyote design engineers indicate the engine speed limits were imposed for specific rotor integrity concerns (as well as durability), why would an owner want to ignore these structural limits to achieve diminishing power?

PO you are correct. As far as the graph I will email them to see if they could send me the 8250 rpm pull will more resolution to more accurately show the power at those levels. As far as durability...sure running the car to 8250 will shorten engine life, how much? no one has that answer. Running the car to 7800 to save a shift during an auto x or HPDE would probably only cause a negligible loss in durabilty esp if it not driven like that on a daily basis every shift. Again, we have NO idea of durability except that the engineers designed the engine to last 150,000 miles with a 7500 rpm limit. I for one read in a couple of places that the hp peak was 7600-7700 and that the valvetrain was designed and warranted (by the engineers) for a 7900 limit...The tuning world thought that the motor was ecu limited like the coyote to 7800 rpm and this Roadrunner is ecu limited to 8250 RPM- So let the benchracing:metal: continue and I'll find that graph!!:jester:

Andy

I think that says it all. Good luck running this motor over 8k RPMs on a routine basis for 20-30 minute sessions at WOT four to six times a day over two-three day events. As P0 has so eloquently put it, your power is diminishing that far out on the curve anyway, so outside of being a dyno queen, what is it accomplishing? Beyond durability, good luck keeping it cool at those RPMs during any serious track duty as well. :poke:

Agreed, I was just posting this to show IT IS capable of this RPM. :dunno: I personally have the soft limiter at 7500 now and the hard limiter at 7700 reverse of stock. And I was talking about one or 2 shifts per lap running the car to 7800 or so as that would save more time than a shift...but certainly not every shift for 20 minutes:poke:

In for results of whatever happens--could be a good data point. Mine will stay with the stock limits; this puppy needs to last!

FWIW in the Speed Channel documentary the head engine engineer states that peak power is at 7,500 and the rev limiter is set at 7,500.

LOL

Where are you coming up with your percentages? And FWIW the drop in torque is insignificant.

I am somewhat surprised that some of you actually drive performance cars. There are always risks involved in modding/racing. He didn't say he was going to run "over 8k RPMs on a routine basis for 20-30 minute sessions at WOT four to six times a day over two-three day events". His car would be a TON faster in the quarter, and he now has the ability to stretch it out when necessary at the road course.

You are ASSuming that there will be durability issues.

Does everyone understand "average usable power"? The power is "diminishing" at a far lesser rate than it would as the result of a shift.

I don't get why you guys are being so tough on this guy. IMO the results are awesome. :dunno:

Thanks for clarifying the risks involved in modding/racing. If you check my sig, you'll see I'm not shy about modding where the risk justifies the reward and you are comfortable with the shop or company providing the mods. Oh and how many "bench racing" track days do you have in your Boss? At least some of us have actually put these cars on track and pushed them albeit HPDE, not racing.

As for being surprised, I'd have to say I'm surprised some of you are in sales :dunno:

SCDA

http://www.scda1.com/schedule

I haven't registered yet because I havnt received my car yet, either. I've been on lightning b4 and had a blast. Never got a chance to run thunderbolt though. It would be great to see some Bosses there. We can beat up on my boys M3!

This video is on lightning! I just found this
http://www.mustangevolution.com/must...ustang+News%29

This :D

Nice. If the Boss driver hadn't blown the start it would have been a lot worse. I'm surprised the Camaro did that well.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PACETTR (Post 6094617)

LOL

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Pacetter, I too am always amused at your posts. Quick to point out how others are always wrong but yet you offer no other justification to or for your position. Clearly shows a lack of understanding.

To answer your question, where am I getting my percentages, where else, the graphically presented DATA.(??)

Show me your numbers so we can compare if you think my percentages are not correct.

And you do correctly identify in your second sentence “the drop in torque”. That says it all whether significant or not (in your opinion).

Very nice group of guys and great variation of cars too! However, even the red group has VERY limited passing - I'll contact Ian(?) and ask if it is still the case.

all in all it is good that we have test mules.

For me (emphasis on me) and this motor, there is NO reason for me to be spinning this motor to 7500 rpms and beyond for any length of time on track.

:catfight:

Not sure about the need for the jab. The fact that you DO mod and race your car is why I am surprised at some of your comments.

And I get to the track as much as my schedule allows. I just picked up my Boss from the rail yard, but the PJ has seen its share of track time, both straight and twisty.

Not opinion; FACT. hp = tq*rpm/5252. hp is what makes the car "faster". Greater average column hp is where it's at.

How much torque do you think F1 cars make?

250?

Show me your numbers so we can compare if you think my percentages are not correct.

I don't see any numbers, only lines...

Ok, I will say this again S L O W E R, so you might better understand. Show me your numbers to calculate the percentages of horsepower and torque rolloff. My percentage calculations are as accurate as the presented data. Show me YOUR numbers. If you only see “lines” why do you think my rolloff calculations are wrong?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PACETTR (Post 6094722)

Not opinion; FACT. hp = tq*rpm/5252. hp is what makes the car "faster". Greater average column hp is where it's at.

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Yep, you can recite the hp equation (as can most high school physics students). Where’s “greater average column hp” at?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PACETTR (Post 6094722)

How much torque do you think F1 cars make?

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What does this have to do with your discussion??

I believe that's pretty close :salute:

More rpm (on this particular engine) = more hp. Higher average column hp = faster acceleration

I only see the peak numbers. I didn't say yours were incorrect, I only asked where you got them, which you have yet to show. I never claimed to hace any other than the peak numbers listed.

Pacettr, I have neither the time nor inclination to “teach” you what or how a graph is read or what it represents. If you do not understand this basic premise, any discussion (technically or otherwise) is hopeless.:banghead: You did zero in on one important aspect. The number you seem boresighted on is the “peak” number.

Higher average column hp = faster acceleration

The peak number you keep reciting is NOT the same as the “average column hp”. Actually you would most probably have to integrate the torque or hp curve to get the average, but clearly you will never understand this either.

I wish you well and enjoy driving your newly received Boss!

You are correct. The hp curve over the usable power band, i.e. ~ 5000-7800 for racing purposes.

There are no numbers on the graph OTHER THAN the peak numbers.

Tell me (if you will stop ducking my simple question); EXACTLY how much hp does this car make at 6275 rpm?

Why are you AVOIDING my basic question? WHAT NUMBERS DID YOU USE TO FIGURE YOUR PERCENTAGES?

I know how to read a graph, but there is no way (at least to my < high school level eye) to extract exact data from the graph as presented.

Never mind. I just noticed you don't even know how to read a dyno graph.

I'll dumb it down for you.

PER THE LEGEND

Eng TQ - BLUE
Eng HP - RED

The run # colors are insignificant.

I guess you don't have any real world experience with these things. Have you ever had any of your vehicles on a dyno? Have you ever been to a drag strip? Road course?




NOW where did you get your EXACT numbers from? :dunno: