Any chance of a dual clutch transmission top line Mustang?
#21
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I agree!
Now of course I'm taking this to the extreme, but imagine if there were a system to just plug in the GPS coordinates of the track into the car and it drives the course for you with optomized shifting, braking, acclerating etc. How much fun would that be?
My point is, I hope the Mustang never gets to the point where the driver really doesn't do anything (case in point the GT-R)
Now of course I'm taking this to the extreme, but imagine if there were a system to just plug in the GPS coordinates of the track into the car and it drives the course for you with optomized shifting, braking, acclerating etc. How much fun would that be?
My point is, I hope the Mustang never gets to the point where the driver really doesn't do anything (case in point the GT-R)
actually.. i think BMW has this. or at least are still developing it. I saw it on top gear.. Clarkson was scared less
not that i approve or care for it, but it just reminded me
#22
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this is a tossup for me. I hate the GTR for its "you're just along for the ride" attitude (but i still will give credit where credit is due.. those engineers did their jobs fo sho) and I love running through the gears of my car... BUT i thing DCT is good thing, assuming its done right.
and the calibration engineer is not making the shifts.. you are. you shift when you want, it just does it faster than you'd be able to otherwise.
I don't see DCT making it into every mustang any time soon. it'll probably start as a GT500 option, then be GT500/SE only, then trickle to the GT and eventually the base model. regardless, i think its gonna be a good thing. as mentioned earlier, EFI, ABS, OHC and tons of other features we have now were once looked down upon. I cant wait til it gets here.
If i had the ability, I'd drop a coyote and DCT into the II
and the calibration engineer is not making the shifts.. you are. you shift when you want, it just does it faster than you'd be able to otherwise.
I don't see DCT making it into every mustang any time soon. it'll probably start as a GT500 option, then be GT500/SE only, then trickle to the GT and eventually the base model. regardless, i think its gonna be a good thing. as mentioned earlier, EFI, ABS, OHC and tons of other features we have now were once looked down upon. I cant wait til it gets here.
If i had the ability, I'd drop a coyote and DCT into the II
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#24
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Duel clutching with even odd gear preselect transmission. Requires co-axial power paths. Sounds expensive and less robust than the traditional transmission. So our 1,800 dollar transmission now becomes a 6,000 transmission. And the costs to repair..... Yikes. Their needs to be an inexpensive muscle car. If you want to pay up the yang, all those things already exists. Keep it simple.
#25
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Duel clutching with even odd gear preselect transmission. Requires co-axial power paths. Sounds expensive and less robust than the traditional transmission. So our 1,800 dollar transmission now becomes a 6,000 transmission. And the costs to repair..... Yikes. Their needs to be an inexpensive muscle car. If you want to pay up the yang, all those things already exists. Keep it simple.
#26
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Duel clutching with even odd gear preselect transmission. Requires co-axial power paths. Sounds expensive and less robust than the traditional transmission. So our 1,800 dollar transmission now becomes a 6,000 transmission. And the costs to repair..... Yikes. Their needs to be an inexpensive muscle car. If you want to pay up the yang, all those things already exists. Keep it simple.
The two clutches and various solenoids and sensors would represent an increase in parts and thus, potential failure loci. However, clutches, sensors and solenoids are common, mature and proven technologies (auto trannies are full of them for example) and thus would likely represent on a nominal increase in reliability concerns.
Another countervailing factor, as Moosestang touches upon, is that with greater control over shifting, any higher failure rate due to increased parts counts may be negated and then some by avoiding abuse and shock/overloading failures that can plague manual boxes.
My guess is that in the end, reliability will be a wash and hardly a deal killer itself. That or perhaps a reliability rate somewhere between a tradition manual and auto gear box.
As for overall driver involvement, I think it is refocused rather than removed and overall driver enjoyment would be maintained or even enhanced.
Last edited by rhumb; 3/8/10 at 12:24 PM.
#27
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Performance gains aside, I think this is probably a very appealing feature to the OE guys.
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My current (as of today) theory is that DCT's may first replace the even more expensive, heavy and complex slushbox trannies of today while manuals will stick around longer as a low cost base/optional transmission.
As for being able to handle Mustang V8 levels of torque, I might point to exhibit A, the Bugatti Veyron. There doesn't seem to be a modest torque ceiling as with, say CVTs which don't seem to be able to handle much beyond 200 lb/ft reliably.
As for being able to handle Mustang V8 levels of torque, I might point to exhibit A, the Bugatti Veyron. There doesn't seem to be a modest torque ceiling as with, say CVTs which don't seem to be able to handle much beyond 200 lb/ft reliably.
#30
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Not a bad theory, but at some point the cost of designing new manual trans and keeping the separate parts chain going is going to look pretty unappealing to the guys and gals with the spreadsheets. Likely take awhile before we get to that point, though.
#31
I never knew what all the fuss of DCT was about until I drove a car that had one.
You raise an interesting point.
Costs aren't the only reason why they'd wait for DCT to handle the GT500's torque; imagine a 5.0 with DCT vs a GT500 without one! I'm not saying it'll threaten it in terms of speed, but certainly as a driving experience it could prove to be a little more desirable.
The issue with fords DCT transmissions is its ability to handle high torque applications that is why ford is using them in europe and i believe in the usa on the fiesta and new focus. as soon as they perfect one that can handle GT500 torque i believe we will see it in the GT and V6. if they are all being built on the same assembly line it makes more sense to amortize the cost between more (and higher volume) versions of the car than just on thier lowest volume version. call it a 2.5k option, just a guess.
Costs aren't the only reason why they'd wait for DCT to handle the GT500's torque; imagine a 5.0 with DCT vs a GT500 without one! I'm not saying it'll threaten it in terms of speed, but certainly as a driving experience it could prove to be a little more desirable.
#33
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I would bet that the DCT will replace the traditional automatic tranny eventually but I don't see them getting rid of the manual stick shift due to all the die hards out there that want the 3rd peddle.
I personally have driven an audi and VW with a DCT and they are awesome. If you look at tests between DCT and manuals of the same car the DCT is almost always faster.
In my opinion, i would take either of them. It depends on what the car is and what i want it for. All personal preference though.
A DCT mustang? Hell yes!
I personally have driven an audi and VW with a DCT and they are awesome. If you look at tests between DCT and manuals of the same car the DCT is almost always faster.
In my opinion, i would take either of them. It depends on what the car is and what i want it for. All personal preference though.
A DCT mustang? Hell yes!
#34
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i would def order a DCT on my next one if i could. i live in the city and the traffic benefit would be great plus the lightning quick shifts and perfect rev matching would be a benefit as well. just think about it a car would need two sticks and two clutch pedals to do what the DCT can do we just dont have enough hands and feet to keep up haha.
#35
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DCT is the future. A human simply cannot consistently shift as smooth and quick. If this is an option on the next gen 2014 I'm definitely getting it.
#36
I think when (not if) we see this is all dependent on where Ford targets the Mustang during the next redesign. Should they keep it on par with what they currently offer, as a slightly more upscale alternative to the Camaro and Challenger, and a "poor-man's E92 M3", then it will be here sooner than we think. If they go back to older ways and keep it on par with them, then it might take longer. By offering the DCT, you might be able to draw some of those German car owners away, and increase your customer base. Also, giving them class-exclusive features is a nice feather in their cap.
#37
My prediction is that as long as the Mustang has a combustion engine we will have a manual transmission option if not standard. I do believe the DCT will eventually arrive and that's good for those who do not want to deal with a clutch pedal. I personally would rather have a Mustang a tenth slower that I can manually shift in the traditional sense.
I don't think the Fuel Injection vs Carb argument really applies here, the driver was/is pressing the accelerator regardless of how fuel is delivered so the driver involvement didn't change like it would if you removed the third pedal.
I see the value of a DCT and I really wish Ford had a midsize rear wheel drive sedan to put the DCT in, I'd be all over that! Think something Lincoln LS sized with a 3.7 V6 and/or a 5.0 V8 - that would be sweet!
Recall the hue and cry about how electronic fuel injection would be the downfall of hot rodding, never mind anti-lock brakes -- both of which are now part and parcel of the hi-po driving world. I suspect the adoption of DCTs will follow a similar acceptance trajectory whereas in 10-15 years time, stick wiggling will be right up there with hand cranks and drum brakes.
I see the value of a DCT and I really wish Ford had a midsize rear wheel drive sedan to put the DCT in, I'd be all over that! Think something Lincoln LS sized with a 3.7 V6 and/or a 5.0 V8 - that would be sweet!
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#39
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Sucktastic future, but I digress - A DCT (or DSG as one prefers) is great for extracting maximum performance from the engine, but honestly would leave me unimpressed with the driver if the game were merely one of acceleration.
Last edited by bob; 8/8/10 at 05:49 PM.
#40
The traditional manuals days are numbered as long as the EPA Fuel Economy Test remains structured as it is.
17 Mph
25 Mph
40 Mph
45 Mph
50 Mph
Those are the mandated shift points for the manual and the reason we have been saddled with skip shift. To allow the engagement of high gear by 40 mph and reasonable rpm for mpg on changes (1-4 excepted).
A DCT on the other hand is considered an Automatic and can start in 2nd, skip to 4th, skip to 6th all at a low rpm getting in high gear by 30 mph doing much better on the EPA Test. When you take into consideration it also does better on than the best hydraulic automatics and can replace two different transmissions its a no brainer from a manufacturers standpoint.
17 Mph
25 Mph
40 Mph
45 Mph
50 Mph
Those are the mandated shift points for the manual and the reason we have been saddled with skip shift. To allow the engagement of high gear by 40 mph and reasonable rpm for mpg on changes (1-4 excepted).
A DCT on the other hand is considered an Automatic and can start in 2nd, skip to 4th, skip to 6th all at a low rpm getting in high gear by 30 mph doing much better on the EPA Test. When you take into consideration it also does better on than the best hydraulic automatics and can replace two different transmissions its a no brainer from a manufacturers standpoint.