Question about tunes
5/25/11, 05:40 AM
#1
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Question about tunes
I found a thread talking about people having issues with the tunes in their new 5.0s. I just installed the 91 tune from steeda canada and am now wondering if there os any cause for concern with the packaged tunes.
I know many of you have packaged tunes from steeda, bama etc and im very curious to hear your feedback. Are these packaged tunes totally safe for our engines both in the short and long term?
I know many of you have packaged tunes from steeda, bama etc and im very curious to hear your feedback. Are these packaged tunes totally safe for our engines both in the short and long term?
5/25/11, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by fossy207
I found a thread talking about people having issues with the tunes in their new 5.0s. I just installed the 91 tune from steeda canada and am now wondering if there os any cause for concern with the packaged tunes.
I know many of you have packaged tunes from steeda, bama etc and im very curious to hear your feedback. Are these packaged tunes totally safe for our engines both in the short and long term?
I know many of you have packaged tunes from steeda, bama etc and im very curious to hear your feedback. Are these packaged tunes totally safe for our engines both in the short and long term?
However because of how new this platform is there's always a development curve. I would put the car on the dyno and make sure the car is performing correctly. $100 in tuning time is much more expensive than buying a new engine.
5/25/11, 09:14 AM
#5
Shelby GT350 Member
It's an open question.
Nobody knows why a handful of cars (quantity unknown) melted down their #8 piston but the word on the street is that they all had canned tunes...and the additional speculation is that these particular tunes may have monkey'd around with the knock sensor parameters.
Add in a #8 cylinder that runs a bit hotter than the rest (which is apparently common in a V8) and you end up with knocking in that cylinder that goes uncorrected by the engine management...and disaster ensues.
As with all of the issues with these cars, nobody knows anything. We are left to act on our hunches.
Many folks are running tunes. The reputable tuners (like Steeda, Bama, etc) are undoubtedly aware that there have been engine problems...but without any concrete information and countless variables, it's impossible to know if they are making the right adjustments.
That said, this isn't rocket science. Assuming that it's not actually an engine build quality issue, a tune that includes the stock knock sensor parameters SHOULD prevent this particular problem by keeping the air fuel ratio and timing in line.
Was that vague enough for you?
Nobody knows why a handful of cars (quantity unknown) melted down their #8 piston but the word on the street is that they all had canned tunes...and the additional speculation is that these particular tunes may have monkey'd around with the knock sensor parameters.
Add in a #8 cylinder that runs a bit hotter than the rest (which is apparently common in a V8) and you end up with knocking in that cylinder that goes uncorrected by the engine management...and disaster ensues.
As with all of the issues with these cars, nobody knows anything. We are left to act on our hunches.
Many folks are running tunes. The reputable tuners (like Steeda, Bama, etc) are undoubtedly aware that there have been engine problems...but without any concrete information and countless variables, it's impossible to know if they are making the right adjustments.
That said, this isn't rocket science. Assuming that it's not actually an engine build quality issue, a tune that includes the stock knock sensor parameters SHOULD prevent this particular problem by keeping the air fuel ratio and timing in line.
Was that vague enough for you?
5/25/11, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by MRGTX
It's an open question.
Nobody knows why a handful of cars (quantity unknown) melted down their #8 piston but the word on the street is that they all had canned tunes...and the additional speculation is that these particular tunes may have monkey'd around with the knock sensor parameters.
Add in a #8 cylinder that runs a bit hotter than the rest (which is apparently common in a V8) and you end up with knocking in that cylinder that goes uncorrected by the engine management...and disaster ensues.
As with all of the issues with these cars, nobody knows anything. We are left to act on our hunches.
Many folks are running tunes. The reputable tuners (like Steeda, Bama, etc) are undoubtedly aware that there have been engine problems...but without any concrete information and countless variables, it's impossible to know if they are making the right adjustments.
That said, this isn't rocket science. Assuming that it's not actually an engine build quality issue, a tune that includes the stock knock sensor parameters SHOULD prevent this particular problem by keeping the air fuel ratio and timing in line.
Was that vague enough for you?
Nobody knows why a handful of cars (quantity unknown) melted down their #8 piston but the word on the street is that they all had canned tunes...and the additional speculation is that these particular tunes may have monkey'd around with the knock sensor parameters.
Add in a #8 cylinder that runs a bit hotter than the rest (which is apparently common in a V8) and you end up with knocking in that cylinder that goes uncorrected by the engine management...and disaster ensues.
As with all of the issues with these cars, nobody knows anything. We are left to act on our hunches.
Many folks are running tunes. The reputable tuners (like Steeda, Bama, etc) are undoubtedly aware that there have been engine problems...but without any concrete information and countless variables, it's impossible to know if they are making the right adjustments.
That said, this isn't rocket science. Assuming that it's not actually an engine build quality issue, a tune that includes the stock knock sensor parameters SHOULD prevent this particular problem by keeping the air fuel ratio and timing in line.
Was that vague enough for you?
5/25/11, 11:08 AM
#7
Bullitt Member
Only been a few weeks for me, but love my Bama tune. There was some other threads around that showed the major tuners (Steeda, Bama, Jun Lund, etc) went less aggressive on part of the tune after that #8 cylinder issue came to light.
5/25/11, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by falhulk
Please elaborate...link?
The piston damage in question where a tune was installed shows zero sign of detonation. The ring land failed.
5/25/11, 12:46 PM
#11
MOTM Committee Member
Personally I wouldn't be worried about engine build quality issues, but I would be worried about poorly written tunes. You're probably safe with the big names, just make sure it gets dyno tuned so you can check if all the parameters are in line.
The 5.0 is still relatively new, and as always there will be a learning curve
The 5.0 is still relatively new, and as always there will be a learning curve
5/25/11, 02:24 PM
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jlmounce is on point.
MRGTX, you should stop spreading rumors of tuners "monkeying" with the knock sensors. I've seen you say that in at least two threads now, and what you are obviously not grasping is how the stock knock sensor settings function.
The stock settings will cause a 'limp'-like mode even when no knocking is actually present - in laymans terms, the stock settings are extremely sensitive, to the point of annoyance when attempting to put power down. This is obviously done for the 'better safe than sorry' aspect of all stock tunes, but is not something that you want in a car that should be putting down reliable and consistent power.
The tuners dialed down this sensitivity, but with the small handful of #8 ring land failures, popular demand has caused them to re-adjust back to stock sensitivity.
Notice the italics on ring land. The only person that has posted pictures of his #8 clearly show this was not a tuning error, but a manufacturer error. This is most likely why Ford was so quick to jump in and replace the motor, even though the car in question had an intake and tune when the guy took it to the dealer.
This possibly tells us something: either Ford knows about this issue, or the techs at the dealership didn't notice the mods.
MRGTX, you should stop spreading rumors of tuners "monkeying" with the knock sensors. I've seen you say that in at least two threads now, and what you are obviously not grasping is how the stock knock sensor settings function.
The stock settings will cause a 'limp'-like mode even when no knocking is actually present - in laymans terms, the stock settings are extremely sensitive, to the point of annoyance when attempting to put power down. This is obviously done for the 'better safe than sorry' aspect of all stock tunes, but is not something that you want in a car that should be putting down reliable and consistent power.
The tuners dialed down this sensitivity, but with the small handful of #8 ring land failures, popular demand has caused them to re-adjust back to stock sensitivity.
Notice the italics on ring land. The only person that has posted pictures of his #8 clearly show this was not a tuning error, but a manufacturer error. This is most likely why Ford was so quick to jump in and replace the motor, even though the car in question had an intake and tune when the guy took it to the dealer.
This possibly tells us something: either Ford knows about this issue, or the techs at the dealership didn't notice the mods.
5/25/11, 07:21 PM
#13
Shelby GT350 Member
jlmounce is on point.
MRGTX, you should stop spreading rumors of tuners "monkeying" with the knock sensors. I've seen you say that in at least two threads now, and what you are obviously not grasping is how the stock knock sensor settings function.
The stock settings will cause a 'limp'-like mode even when no knocking is actually present - in laymans terms, the stock settings are extremely sensitive, to the point of annoyance when attempting to put power down. This is obviously done for the 'better safe than sorry' aspect of all stock tunes, but is not something that you want in a car that should be putting down reliable and consistent power.
The tuners dialed down this sensitivity, but with the small handful of #8 ring land failures, popular demand has caused them to re-adjust back to stock sensitivity.
Notice the italics on ring land. The only person that has posted pictures of his #8 clearly show this was not a tuning error, but a manufacturer error. This is most likely why Ford was so quick to jump in and replace the motor, even though the car in question had an intake and tune when the guy took it to the dealer.
This possibly tells us something: either Ford knows about this issue, or the techs at the dealership didn't notice the mods.
MRGTX, you should stop spreading rumors of tuners "monkeying" with the knock sensors. I've seen you say that in at least two threads now, and what you are obviously not grasping is how the stock knock sensor settings function.
The stock settings will cause a 'limp'-like mode even when no knocking is actually present - in laymans terms, the stock settings are extremely sensitive, to the point of annoyance when attempting to put power down. This is obviously done for the 'better safe than sorry' aspect of all stock tunes, but is not something that you want in a car that should be putting down reliable and consistent power.
The tuners dialed down this sensitivity, but with the small handful of #8 ring land failures, popular demand has caused them to re-adjust back to stock sensitivity.
Notice the italics on ring land. The only person that has posted pictures of his #8 clearly show this was not a tuning error, but a manufacturer error. This is most likely why Ford was so quick to jump in and replace the motor, even though the car in question had an intake and tune when the guy took it to the dealer.
This possibly tells us something: either Ford knows about this issue, or the techs at the dealership didn't notice the mods.
"Somebody is wrong on the Internet! Here's my time to shine!"
The only place you are contradicting me is that you believe that knock cannot cause ring land failure. I'm not an engineer but I'm pretty sure that it can.
5/25/11, 07:27 PM
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There really are a handful rude jackasses on this forum....why? Whats the point?
"Somebody is wrong on the Internet! Here's my time to shine!"
The only place you are contradicting me is that you believe that knock cannot cause ring land failure. I'm not an engineer but I'm pretty sure that it can.
"Somebody is wrong on the Internet! Here's my time to shine!"
The only place you are contradicting me is that you believe that knock cannot cause ring land failure. I'm not an engineer but I'm pretty sure that it can.
However you would generally see signs of detonation on the piston top as well if it was severe enough to cause that issue.
Now, with that said, there are other things that can cause this type of failure as well. The only way to realistically prove what happened in the case of the pistons we've seen in posts would be to do a metallurgical analysis of the piston. Specifically the ring land. You could then determine if it was a manufacturing defect or other.
Since that wasn't done, and likely won't be, nobody will know any more than what they can see at face value.
Bottom line, while I don't think tuning these cars is going to be of any detriment, there's a few simple rules that should be followed. The biggest being, if you can't cover the cost of a new engine, don't modify it.
5/25/11, 07:45 PM
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My area is pretty unique (altitude, humidity, etc.) - how can somebody in the midwest or east coast write a tune for my area?
And frankly, since none of the tuners have replicated the advanced spark ignition system, I don't even want to try their tunes/toons. Ford introduced that in 08 on Bullitt - why haven't the tuners added it by now? Instead they still write octane specific tunes.
I'm in the mountains on the edge of the Oregon high desert at 4200' most of the time with a 5k pass in every direction to go anywhere. But I may drive to Crater Lake at 7k, or I may drive down to the valley or even to the ocean. Their tunes can't adapt but my factory tune can.
5/25/11, 07:55 PM
#16
Shelby GT350 Member
This is true. Detonation can cause that type of failure as it creates vibration and lateral movement in the cylinder bores.
However you would generally see signs of detonation on the piston top as well if it was severe enough to cause that issue.
Now, with that said, there are other things that can cause this type of failure as well. The only way to realistically prove what happened in the case of the pistons we've seen in posts would be to do a metallurgical analysis of the piston. Specifically the ring land. You could then determine if it was a manufacturing defect or other.
Since that wasn't done, and likely won't be, nobody will know any more than what they can see at face value.
Bottom line, while I don't think tuning these cars is going to be of any detriment, there's a few simple rules that should be followed. The biggest being, if you can't cover the cost of a new engine, don't modify it.
However you would generally see signs of detonation on the piston top as well if it was severe enough to cause that issue.
Now, with that said, there are other things that can cause this type of failure as well. The only way to realistically prove what happened in the case of the pistons we've seen in posts would be to do a metallurgical analysis of the piston. Specifically the ring land. You could then determine if it was a manufacturing defect or other.
Since that wasn't done, and likely won't be, nobody will know any more than what they can see at face value.
Bottom line, while I don't think tuning these cars is going to be of any detriment, there's a few simple rules that should be followed. The biggest being, if you can't cover the cost of a new engine, don't modify it.
Informative, reasonable post. Thank you.
5/26/11, 05:42 AM
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I almost wish i had posted this thread a couple weeks ago before i got my tune because maybe i would have held back, but the truth is these tunes are like crack! Once you put it on there's no going back! That said, i will be back at my local shop soon and will have them put it on the dyno and do full analysis to make sure all the parameters look good.
5/26/11, 12:01 PM
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There really are a handful rude jackasses on this forum....why? Whats the point?
"Somebody is wrong on the Internet! Here's my time to shine!"
The only place you are contradicting me is that you believe that knock cannot cause ring land failure. I'm not an engineer but I'm pretty sure that it can.
"Somebody is wrong on the Internet! Here's my time to shine!"
The only place you are contradicting me is that you believe that knock cannot cause ring land failure. I'm not an engineer but I'm pretty sure that it can.
Of course knock can cause ring land failure, but the point to be made here is that any kind of knock serious enough to crack a ring would almost definitely distort the piston in some way or another. That isn't the case here.
When combined with the rumors regarding ring land failure causing the original cars to be delayed back in the beginning of 2010, as well as this person who brought a modified car to a dealership and got a new engine, no questions asked...it's pretty safe to say this is a manufacturer error.
Thing is, I said all of this in my previous post, so I'm sure you'll just call me rude and continue trying to hurt the sales of the extremely talented tuners of the industry.
5/26/11, 12:31 PM
#19
Shelby GT350 Member
My post wasn't meant to be rude, but rather, to attempt to convince you why it's wrong for you to be claiming tuners are "monkeying" around with the knock sensor settings. Monkeying around would imply the tuners don't know what they are doing, when in fact it is quite the opposite, as I detailed in my previous post.
Of course knock can cause ring land failure, but the point to be made here is that any kind of knock serious enough to crack a ring would almost definitely distort the piston in some way or another. That isn't the case here.
When combined with the rumors regarding ring land failure causing the original cars to be delayed back in the beginning of 2010, as well as this person who brought a modified car to a dealership and got a new engine, no questions asked...it's pretty safe to say this is a manufacturer error.
Thing is, I said all of this in my previous post, so I'm sure you'll just call me rude and continue trying to hurt the sales of the extremely talented tuners of the industry.
Of course knock can cause ring land failure, but the point to be made here is that any kind of knock serious enough to crack a ring would almost definitely distort the piston in some way or another. That isn't the case here.
When combined with the rumors regarding ring land failure causing the original cars to be delayed back in the beginning of 2010, as well as this person who brought a modified car to a dealership and got a new engine, no questions asked...it's pretty safe to say this is a manufacturer error.
Thing is, I said all of this in my previous post, so I'm sure you'll just call me rude and continue trying to hurt the sales of the extremely talented tuners of the industry.
Yes. Knock induced ringland failure can distort the piston in other ways...but this is not necessarily apparent in a failure of this type.
Take the hottest cylinder in a motor that is known to run hot, subject it to a tune that optimizes timing and fuel ratios for power (lean as possible), dial down the sensitivity of the "annoying knock sensor," run it hard, heat soak the motor and William of Ockham will start wagging his finger.
So temperatures and fuel distribution may be the top priority for these motors prior to tuning... The inevitable DI version of this motor will probably cure the latter...we may be able to do something about the former in the more immediate future...bigger radiator? Higher octane fuel? Bigger injectors? Oil cooler?
Last edited by MRGTX; 5/26/11 at 12:35 PM.
5/26/11, 12:55 PM
#20
Shelby GT350 Member
Here is what a reputable tuner told me
Don’t run a stupid aggressive tune and you’ll be fine
Let the KS work as needed
Run the a/f 12:1, traditionally rich for an NA car, but I have not seen 5.0s make any power power at 13:1 a/f
Don’t run stupid timing, this is a 11:1 CR motor with a factory premium fuel cal, the factory did a pretty good job, there is only 10-15rwhp peak to be gained safely (lots of other little ways you can make the car feel good). These guys claiming 30 probably can’t get the car to repeat and are probably doing stupid ****.
Don’t run a stupid aggressive tune and you’ll be fine
Let the KS work as needed
Run the a/f 12:1, traditionally rich for an NA car, but I have not seen 5.0s make any power power at 13:1 a/f
Don’t run stupid timing, this is a 11:1 CR motor with a factory premium fuel cal, the factory did a pretty good job, there is only 10-15rwhp peak to be gained safely (lots of other little ways you can make the car feel good). These guys claiming 30 probably can’t get the car to repeat and are probably doing stupid ****.