Indystang

Seems like Dealers have always marked up SE cars. I just figured it was Fords way of helping them out with something that they can make some extra money on for selling some of the boring cars all year round. I am pretty good friends with the owner of my local dealership and he is taking a beating on many models usually until the year end rebates and other stuff is offered. As far as seeing the 2010 mustang before the challenger and camaro are out forget about it. Ford will drop that bomb on GM and Dodge just when they want to steal away all the thunder from them right after their release. I think the new Stang will be just as stunning as the 2005 was!

V10

You are correct. To Ford, their dealers are their customers, not you and I. SEs are viewed as a reward to dealers to help them make some $$.

97GT03SVT

Back in 03-04' Mach1s and Cobras always sold for sticker price in my neck of the woods and they are SEs.actually I never saw SVTs with markups until the GT500 came out....

m05fastbackGT

That's because, they didn't have the name Shelby, tacked upon their decklids

TXBLUOVAL

2008 BULLITT is a major performance disappointment.

If Ford would regroup and offer an optional N/A 5.4 2-V or 3-V for this model all would more than likely be forgiven. I don't think it would be all that hard for them to do.

Ford better not render another wimp SE, especially if it is a MACH I or BOSS.

Galaxie

I think that Ford will put a 2010 concept realitively soon, to steal some of the thunder of the Camaro.

I am not sure exactly when the new stang will launch, but I have a good feeling that the production camaro is coming out in early '09. That being said, the production car will likely be shown at NYIAS.

The smart money says that Ford will drop their production or a concept at the same show as the Camaro to steal some thunder.

If I was a marketing exec at GM, I would sneak the production car in last minute at a major show.

jsaylor

How much better the car itself is, dynamically and aesthetically, might have something to do with it as well.

97GT03SVT

I disagree, The GT is a huge improvement over the 99-04 GTs too does that mean they are worth more than MSRP? The SVT was once a bargain for those of us guys who wanted a hopped up Mustang from the factory. But now the GT500 though in my opinion is a great car and worth the sticker price of the mid $40,000 range is not worth more than a Corvette, M6 etc... that will dominate it in every aspect. Don't get me wrong the GT500 is a great car but it is not worth more than $45,000.there are many cars that will out perform the GT500 for the 65-70k markup they are getting. I personally think the whole collectible thing is bunk too! These GT500s are being built in larger quantities than any of the previous SVT Cobras from 93'-04'. People are buying this car in the hopes that the Shelby name will make it worth big money in the future. Remember those sh*tbox Dodges Shelby put his name on? Too be honest with you I have driven a GT500 and I don't see the "huge improvement" over the 03-04 Cobras everyone seems to speak of. Yes I agree they give a much nicer ride, driver comfort...but stock for stock it is not a much quicker car than a Terminator, maybe 1 or 2 tenths of a second? As far as handling goes the base V8 GT in my opinion handles better than the GT500! Though it is a great car there is no excuse for people to still pay ADMs on a GT500 in its second model year!

jsaylor

I didn't make any personal statement regarding wether or not the GT500 was worth more than MSRP. But the reality is that ADM's are a sign of increased demand and to claim that the GT500's superiority as a car has nothing to do with this is simply not credible. As for your comments regarding Mustang GT's if you recall these too had ADM's when first released and dealers regularly obtained higher than sticker prices for the cars for some time. While this craze didn't last nearly so long as ADM's have on the GT500 there is no question that each car wore (or in the GT500's case wears) ADM's for many of the same reasons. Not the least of these is the fact that both are far superior cars to the models which they replaced.

As for the handling comments regarding the GT500, each to their own. I've never driven a GT500 but I find it difficult to believe that I would prefer the GT's handling to that of the GT500 since there is no apparent penalty in ride comfort or predictability while the steering feel and handling limits are each greatly improved. Sounds like a better handling car to me. And I was never enamored by any SN95 based Mustang I drove from handling pespective with the best I've ever been in overall, IMO, being a Mach-1.

As for the GT500 being 1 or two tenths of a second quicker...I suppose at this point wether or not this is the case depends a great deal on a particular driver's ability. While apparently very difficult to muster a GT500 is close to a half second quicker than the Terminator can be expected to perform 1/4 mile best versus 1/4 mile best. That is not a small number, particularly not when you take into consideration that this gap in performance is going to widen as speed climbs.

Put more simply when traction limitations disappear the GT500 is undoubtedly going to be significantly faster than the Terminator...for example from a roll. Couple this with the reality that even the S197 GT is arguably a better car dynamically than the Terminator was and you have a GT500 which stands head and shoulders above the Termy in every area......both in terms of performance and dynamics.

Would I pay an ADM for one? Heck no. But I understand how the car got those ADM's, and it isn't all....or arguably even primarily.....due to the Shelby name

97GT03SVT

I didn't mean to attack you, I gotta admit i'm a little bitter, I put a deposit down on the next gen SVT back in 04' (didnt even know it was the GT500 yet) and got burned by the dealer wanting 75k for a 43k car. I have to disagree with you on your points (agree to disagree here I wanna keep things friendly) I think the ADMs is purely the name of the car. At the time the 03-04 Cobras were as much of a bargain as the GT500 would be if had at MSRP. The 03' Cobra was about 10-15k cheaper! (depending on options) than the base Corvette of that year and did a good job holding its own (faster in the 1/4). Yes the GT500 is a better car but it is newer and it is expected to be, just as the Corvette is. The GT500 is not that much different in Form and Function than the Terminator.quick in a straight line and an ok handler. There are Euro, Japanese and the Corvette priced at about the same price that would destroy the GT500 on a road corse with their handling ability.

As far as handling goes its a matter of opinion and perhaps people whom have driven both should weigh in but I feel the GT is far more balanced than the GT500. I feel a huge part of this is because the GT500 is a very nose-heavy car and it kinda plows into the coners much like the 03-04 Cobras. The GT on the other hand has almost perfect 50/50 weight balance. I'm not saying the 03 Cobra is the best handling car in the world but it's handling is superior to a Mach1 due to its IRS setup and not worlds apart from the S197 like most people claim.

As far as 1/4 mile times are concerned I also flat out disagree. Though the GT500 has far more potential as far as mods go stock for stock I highly doubt that a GT500 could go .5 sec faster! I have seen these cars at the track run alongside Cobras and not pull away, Look at any mainstream car mags (Car & Driver, Motor Trend, Road & Track etc...) all these mags record 1/4 times within 1-2 tenths of a second. In fact I think Motor Trend recored a faster time with the 03'. Though the GT500 has roughly 100 more HP a large amount of it is offset by approx 400lbs weight penalty, A Vette with 100 less HP is consistanly faster in the 1/4...think about it weight plays a key role in performance.

I just think that these ADMs on the GTs when new, now the SEs like the GT500, Shelby GT and probably the Bullitt are ludicris and are capitalizing on baby boomers that could care less about the last 20+ years of Mustang production. I know a couple GT500 owners with no previous loyalty to the work SVT had done with their 93-04 cars! It drives me crazy that Ford put Shelby's name on the car with no need to do so. I as well as many others feel that Ford would have no problem selling 07' SVT Cobras and would not have needed to pay Shelby to put his name on the car and not betray loyal enthusiasts who wanted an affordible alternative to a Vette, BMW, Porsche etc (have owned 3 different types of SVTs Cobra, Contour and Lighning)

jsaylor

No problem man. I didn't feel insulted and never expected this to get unfriendly. You've got your reasons for why you feel the way you do and that is good enough for me. I don't agree with you, but a lot of folks with a lot of different ideas are part of the reason why these forums are as good as trhey are. And as the Terminator versus GT500 thing has been done to death, on more than a few of those occasions with my help, I'm not going to go into it any further again here.

97GT03SVT

Lets just say that I hope Challenger and Camaro production will hopfully bring these SE cars back down to reality, I have the money but can't justify spending more than sticker for any car

V10

The Camaro is still over a year away, so it obviously won't have much affect on the Mustang until then.

In the near term, the Challenger will only effect the GT-500 since Chrysler is planning to build only about 5,000 Challengers in 08 all SRT models.

But the way Mustang sales have tanked over the last 6 months, Ford better get it's rear end in gear and give us something more than the Bullitt.

97GT03SVT

I debated this in another thread, but I think though the Camaro and the base V8 Challengers are still a year or two away the loyal buyers have something to wait, and look foward to. I think sales of the 05-06 Mustangs soared not only because it was an all new platform but also because GM and Mopar guys had no alternative and bought Mustangs. Now both GM and Mopar will have their own muscle cars in the near future, trust me there are thousands saving their money for a new Camaro or Challenger

m05fastbackGT

There's no question that the GT500 is far superior, just as the current GT is over the previous SVT Cobra/Terminator, and Mach 1

However, you and I know d@mn well..that if it weren't for the Shelby nameplate ! dealers wouldn't be marking them up by 15-20k above sticker to begin with..

And let's face the facts here..If the car were named, the 2007 SVT. Cobra, instead of Shelby GT500..do you really believe, that dealers would still mark them at 15-20k above MSRP ? hell freaking NO !

That being said..I don't care how superior the GT500 is..As far as I'm concerned, there is no late model Mustang..that's worth $55,000-$70,000 Period !

It's just as Phil mentioned..Dealers are capitalizing on the Shelby nameplate, along with the collectable factor..Directed towards baby boomers, who have disposable incomes..

jsaylor

Alright, since it wont go away....Frankly I just don't believe that there are enough people willing to drop more than 10k or more on the car simply because of the Shelby name to keep the ADM's going this long. No doubt the most enamored among us have contribued to ADM's, but I doubt even they would have been inclined to want this car so badly had the package not been as good as it is. IMO the basic driving factors for the level of demand have been the styling and the fact that the car apparently makes a very nice daily driver despite making 500hp, which means that the primary reason for ADM's is under-production.

And to make a really credible counter argument anybody going for the 'pure Shelby' angle here has to satisfactorily explain why the Shelby GT has done so poorly in sales despite the fact that the GT is actually converted by Shelby's company giving it greater cred among many of those who consider themselves purists. Shelby addicts should be all over the GT model. Also worth mentioning is that the Shelby GT has always sold for far less than a GT500, another factor which should be contributing to high sales. Factor in the reality that the Shelby GT has been available for well below msrp for quite some time and the real world difference in price of entry is huge. Those cars should be flying off lots if people are interested in buying cars primarily because the name Shelby is attached....but the reality is GT's haven't done well in the marketplace.

The same question can be asked of the Z06 for that matter. Chevy is building a 500hp Vette with sub 12 second 1/4 mile perfomance that packs a 427ci V8 and wears the Z06 moniker. Those last two 'numbers' have a lot of meaning to the Corvette faithful to say the least and should have the faithful built up into a buying frenzy. And as we are talking about a group of people who have to drop at least 45k to get into one of their beloved cars, and who can and regularly do pay prices in the high 50's just to get into a highly optioned coupe, a 70k Vette that makes 500hp from a 427ci V8 and wears the above mentioned Z06 badging should fly off the lots given the high amount of disposable income many Vette loyalists have at their command and the Z06 models extremely low production numbers. But they aren't, and Z06's were available below msrp before the car even spent a full year on the market. For that matter the used Z06 market is huge with many people taking a literal beating to get out of their cars, a reality which raises far more questions than it answers. Vette enthusiasts will point to the Z06 as a sign of the Vette's performance supremacy all day long, but they apparently dont actually want to buy one far more often than not.

An interesting tidbit of info for both of these cars is that each started out with astronomical ADM's, moving for ridiculous amounts of money on a few occasions when first released, but once the people willing to drop money soley for a name dried up pricing dropped like a rock in both cases. If somebody who subsrcibes to the badge worship theory can satisfactorily explain why the Shelby GT and Z06 have performed so differently than the GT500 has in the marketplace utilizing anything resembling reason I'll relent and give the angle that the Shelby name is driving sales greater consideration. But I have a feeling we'll be waiting a while.

97GT03SVT

You brought up some valid points. I'll be honest with you as nice as the GT500 is I dont understand why it has such a high demend. It is a great car but is far from perfect and with the ADMs the car is not the best bargain in the Mustang market. I would argue that a Saleen, Steeda or Roush (cars that sell for about the same as the GT500 when ADMs are considered) are superior cars to the GT500 is almost every way. I think part of the failure of the Shelby GT is because there is no real value. The Shelby GT is basically a regualr GT Mustang with a couple of Ford Racing parts installed, yet dealers ask about 45k for one? Anyone with a Mustang GT can convert their car to the specs of a Shelby GT, while the GT500 has much more unique internals. At the end of the day the GT500 still puzzles me, good car yes.but not a great car when touching Corvette, Porsche, BMW prices...

jsaylor

I think the GT500 is a great deal at sticker because the car works so well as a whole. I personally wouldn't pay over sticker for one (I wont pay over sticker for anything) and while I'll admit Ford could likely have made the sticker a bit higher than they did I wouldn't be willing to pay over 50k for a GT500 even assuming the sticker was higher and that the car was completely loaded. (of course, it might help to mention that I despise NAV systems here)

In the end I think the GT500 has reached the level of demand that it has because it is a very powerful, very attractive, very well rounded GT in a price range where GT's this well executed simply don't exist. Even at sticker we all know that you can buy a Vette for the same price, but then you have to be willing to give up the advantages a GT like the GT500 brings to the table to make the switch. For example, the Vette handles better at the limit but the GT500 is easily more comfortable. And according to Car and Driver, who apparently cannot stand the GT500, the Shelby/Ford can cover twisty ground almost as fast as the Vette can anyway so in the real world where most drivers aren't going to go past 8/10ths more than a few times if ever owners haven't really given up anything.

Spec sheets only tell us a very small portion of how good a car actually is. In the real world when you have to live with the car every day by most accounts the GT500 shines. The car does everything a proper GT is supposed to do extremely well, and that makes a big difference when it comes time to sell a car.

Five Oh Brian

Wow, jsaylor, I just gotta say how well thought out and worded your post is. Couldn't have said it any better myself, so thank you for posting!

97GT03SVT

The GT500 more comfortible than a C6 Vette? You gotta be kidding me! Have you ever driven a C6? Its near luxery, quiet no squeeks n raddles perfect build quality, soft sefaces in the interior. I think the biggest advantages of the GT500 over a Vette is the back seat and the wow factor of being a rarer car but the Vette is superior in every other way, more of a bargain than a GT500