Camaro - Is this 1993 all over again?
 

There's a lot of excitement now in the Camaro world. The order banks for the 2010 Camaro opened this week and in the first 3 days they got almost 3,000 orders placed. The Camaro PR department is putting out statements that they're thinking in terms of selling 100,000 + cars in the first year. Dealers are already expecting high demand and giving customers prices that include markups in the $2-5K range over MSRP. This is all similar to what happened in 2004 leading up to the S197 Mustang launch.

So why am I asking if this is 1993 all over again? Well, that was when Camaro reclaimed the lead in the pony car wars with Mustang, after Mustang had dominated in the previous 10 years. The Camaro redesign that year included the 5.7 liter 275hp LT1, which effectively spelled the end for the 5.0 liter 225hp Ford engine. Camaro ruled from 1993 to 2002, at least performance-wise.

But GM sat for too long with the same design, and poor sales finally killed the F-Body Camaro/Firebird in 2002, leaving the door open for Ford to re-capture the public's love of the Mustang. And boy did Hau Thai-Tang and the Mustang engineer and styling teams take advantage of the opportunity.

As far as the 2010 Mustang, we probably know more rumor than fact right now. Or maybe more fact than rumor, but there's still a lot we don't know. We do know that the 2010 Camaro SS is going to be a formidable Mustang foe. The V6 Camaro has 300hp! It's all but guaranteed right now that the 2010 Camaro SS is going to smoke the doors off the current Mustang GT. We hope the redesigned 2010 Mustang will be up to the task, but the Camaro is going to take the lead when it debuts in the Spring - does anyone doubt this?

I haven't mentioned the Challenger on purpose, even though it is a formidable foe as well. It just never was in the top echelon of pony cars, where only the Camaro/Firebird and Mustang exist, and never will be, IMO.

Will Spring 2009 be the start of a new cycle where the Camaro again rules the pony car wars and the Mustang is playing catch up? Or does the timing of the economy ruin things for the Camaro, where the sales don't meet GM's expectation despite the hype and great product? Or does Ford come out with a counterpunch from the Mustang division, where the public thinks it better to wait for the new Mustang rather than jump on the Camaro in the first year?

Whatever happens, we as consumers, win. In Spring 2009, there will be a 400hp pony car available for $30K MSRP. Hopefully later in the year there will be a different one that's better, in the same price range.

Actually I think its other way around.
Camaro dominated sales during 1980s, but Mustang came back in 1990s.
In 1993, 14 year old Fox still outsold a brand new Camaro.

I should have made it clear - I'm talking about performance. Sorry.

I don't think performance should be your only criterion.
No and yes.
First the yes...
The Camaro is new and has been away for a while.
It will sell many cars at first. It is available with lots of HP.
No...
In 1993 the economy was just starting into an upswing.
More money was becoming available. The next few years were even better.
We are in a recession that is getting worse. Credit is getting tight.
People's homes are not places to get extra money.
The die hard Camaro fans will have their car available, but most will not be able to afford them.:dunno:

The BIG difference now credit is almost impossible to get for a new car unless the buyer in question has most of the cash already in hand. Now honestly how many buyers today actually save up most or atleast half of the money to buy anything nowadays? Maybe 15-20% of buyers? Not many at all. The rest of the buyers up until the credit crisis borrowed 70-100% of the asking price for long terms and moderate interest rates with questionable credit scores. Those days are over. So much for keepin' up with the Jones. Here is a newsflash for you---Mr. Jones is probably in debt up to his broke *** crack! All new car sales are going to suffer badly because the qualified buyers are too few. Ford, GM, and Dodge can't be saved by a few Hollywood entertainers and rock stars buying their top of the line performance models. The Mustangs saving grace is that it the best bang for the buck pony car. It is sharp, reliable, fast out of the box, well optioned, great aftermarket network, and has the image of the true American Musclecar that has stood the test of time. Most people who want one can afford one. Besides the Vette (which most buyers are mortgaged out the *** just to make their friends jealous and pick up young girls), the Mustang has been around for 45 years with no gaps in production and have sold more than all others hands down. Now the mid '70s/ early 80's models were hard to look at IMO but they still sold and sold in huge numbers. Numbers never lie and the car that is the sharper, more affordable, reasonable optioned, ect. will always sell enough the survive. On paper and in the eyes of GM engineers and top brass the last gen GTO was a home run before it came out. In reality it was a horrible strikeout. 400 horses and killer handling and big PR campaign didn't do squat for it. Too expensive $$$$$, too little too late. I am afraid for the expensively priced V8 Camaro SS you should be asking if it will soon be 2002 again. Thats sad too. I am not really a fan of the new Camaro styling but I also hate to see an American car possibly go to the wayside because of something as stupid as several years of "ignorant *** broke credit only buyers" along with "moronic and ignorant *** lending institutions" getting together and almost destorying this nations economy.

The economic woes should effect everyone. Total car sales worldwide have dropped for a couple years in a row and 2009 is expected to be worse. I agree that Chevy and Dodge will not see the kind of sales they had hoped for but it should also spell disaster for the new Mustang. Bad economy, competition, bottom rung in performance numbers.....

I think the 10' Mustang is going to get it's *** kicked in sales. For one it isn't all that different from the 05-09 car. GM and Dodge have brand new cars, everyone is going to want the new stuff. Also Ford is expected to be way behind in the HP department. Say what you will about weight etc.... but just hearing IRS, 6speed, and 400+ HP is a big selling point for the competition. Even if Ford is the top selling of the three it will still fall way short of the numbers for the 05' Mustang.

I feel Ford needs to seriously undercut the competition to remain the top sales leader. I suggest that the 10' model and even the 5.0 11' model undercut the current version in MSRP.I think Ford should take a page from Chevy's play book and give us a decent base model. Ford's new 3.5 V6 is an impressive motor, why is the Mustang still using the crappy 4.0? Think about it the base model sells the most volume shouldn't Ford put some money into that model. I think a V6 with 270 HP can afford to give up 30HP to the new Camaro and still be the quicker car with equally good if not better MPG due to a much lighter vehicle.

In the end I think this is a good thing for us looking to buy a new Mustang. Now dealers can no longer hold us to ADMs because we can simply walk over to the competition's dealerships.

My realistic proposal how the new Mustang lineup should look.

GT500- the new GT500 540+HP, should basically take all the goodies from the KR and made standard on the GT500, an aluminum block would also do wonders for this overweight, nose heavy hot rod.

GT- We should get the Bullitt suspension and 6speed MT/AT and 400HP 5.0

base model- Either give us the new 3.5 V6 or ecoboost 4. With the car's lighter weight it should be able to compete with the more powerful V6 Camaro, the Challenger is already a non-issue.

Mach1/Boss- give us all the suspension, brakes and other goodies from the GT500 with a tweaked GT motor in the neighborhood of 450HP. Oh yes, and please make this SE something very different from the GT model. I for one was not impressed by any of the SE offerings for the 05-09 generation. Follow the model of the 03-04 Mach1. The Mach1 was something that truly filled the gap between Cobra and GT. The car looked and felt dramatically different, oh yeah and make sure it has a shaker hood scoop! To me the Bullitt and Shelby GT were basically tuned GTs.

I don't think horsepower numbers matter that much.

Camaro always had more horsepower than Mustang, but Mustang was outselling Camaro throughout most of the history

I totally agree on the lack of vision concerning the last few SE models. Why a Mach 1/Boss with real guts and a bridge-gap price wasn't offered is beyond me. I never considered buying a Shelby or Bullitt for the same reasons as 97GT03SVT.

Not just that, but the Mustang will be able to do more with its ponies. Even if the Camaro V6 has 300hp.. how much does it weigh again?

too much

I see the Camaro stealing SOME sales from the Mustang, which is assumed since the Mustang has been playing solo for a while. But I don't see it ever outselling the Mustang

I too have been watching the Camaro roll out on one of the websites similar to this one. The are living what we did two years back. Show up to order on Monday and dealers have no idea what you're talking about.

You have to hand them an order guide and teach them what to do. One dealer wanted 1000.00 to put in an order and what number of allocations they get and your spot on the list. etc, etc. One guy claimed his custom plates were picked out already and it was "PNYHNTR". Another claimed he was gonna spend every Saturday doing smoky burnout's in a parking lot somewhere and was gonna show everyone who's the boss.

The credit crunch is temporary. Chevy can and will finance everyone who is in decent standing. Credit unions will pick up the slack. If GM's stock goes up due to good earnings and, you have a few others start to do well over the course of time everything will be back again. People who spend or buy are holding off etc. The construction industry is key and it's not moving up right now. It has however been through many cycles similar to this.

In any case, I think my point is this. I have owned a GT for two years and I don't recall even 1 attempt of someone to race me. So, if you get a car with 400 hp or 300hp, who are you gonna impress? You might pull an extra one or two seconds over a stang in the 1/4 mile (real race track timing) and brag about it but, this aint 1975. There are more people on the roads, more cops, better radar, traffic cameras. If you're 35-45 then you probably have a good job, wife, kids. You plan to spend every saturday at quick mart waiting for a camaro to pull in and make a challenge to see if he will take you? Like stangs people like the looks and want to re-live their youth w/ a camaro for a weekend cruiser.

I just don't see pony wars like it was in the old days.

Just found this post...for those of you that were frustrated back two years ago. If Camaro's depreciate as much as stangs there will be plenty to go around after 6 months for CHEAP!

"We were #2 to order, the local dealer now wants 2k down and pay the sticker price when it comes in. We walked out and probably will not buy a new camaro. Where I work we get the invoice price on new Chevys (dealer is almost 100 miles away) but they will not honor it on the Camaro yet. All of their allocations are gone. The salesman said he could put us in a new Corvette for almost the same price as the fully loaded Camaro."
__________________________________________________ ____________________________

This is getting better!

Buddy (that owns a mustang GT) to a tech at auto club: I am getting killed by camaros at the strip...what do i have to do to beat one?
Tech back to my buddy: Buy a camaro...
Buddy: Turns around and walks away with head down...


Gotta love GM! http://www.camaro5.com/forums/images/smilies/chevy.gif

The Camaro V6 is going to be priced competitively with the V8 Mustang GT. There is no competitor for the V6 Mustang, which is the best selling Mustang and the sole reason we can buy a V8 Mustang to this day. Given that people can barely afford $20k cars, they are not going to buy $30k V6 Camaros as much as everyone expects. I'd like to see how much the V8 Camaro costs and what kind of numbers it puts out. Personally I think the Camaro is old news - had it arrived on scene 5 years ago it might have made a difference in the automotive world. In 2008, it looks like the Challenger with some modern advances... nothing to write home about. Fuel economy is the biggest driving force right now. We want our cakes and the ability to eat it as well.

I kinda disagree, I think this is the next muscle car war! Think about it we have Dodge, Chevy and Ford giving us cars up to 540HP from the factory! In the 80s and 90s we pretty much just had Ford and GM and now we have Dodge offering a muscle car for the first time since the early 70s.

You may not care about big HP numbers but a lot of others do. Ask the guys you are paying nearly double for a GT500, or the fact that the aftermarket for these muscle cars is a thriving industry. Mustang buyers expect a car that can run with the Camaro make no doubt about that.

Camaro V6 has a base price of $22,000.

That's pretty cheap for a 300 hp car.

I keep hearing that "people can't get credit." I haven't found this to be the case for me personally (over the past 3 months and most recently 3 weeks ago) and the dealerships around here have 5+ cars outside the showroom every night. Same thing goes for restaurants. Couldn't tell we're headed toward a recession based on Outback, Applebees, or Olive Garden! The lots are packed.

All I am saying is not to overestimate the effect of the current economy on sales performance. They will obviously be decreased, but I wouldn't say devastated.

Interesting. Chevy's website claims MSRP starts at $22,995. There's no way an automaker can reasonably sell a new car like the 300 hp Camaro at that price and still make a sizable profit. I've long suspected GM is losing money on each G8 they sell since they build them in Australia and ship them overseas to the US to sell at a lower price than they sell in Australia (yes, after the currency conversion). I'm not sure what's going on but it is definitely unusual.

As for Mustang, Challenger, and Camaro sales - you have to look at the big picture. Ford sells about 130,000 Mustangs a year - the bulk of which are V6s for fleet buyers (rental car companies). Ford sells over 600,000 F-series in a year. The runners up are the Focus, E-series, Escape, Fusion, Edge, etc... at around 130k-160k units a year - mostly to fleet buyers.

It's kind of late for muscle car wars when gas prices have already spiked into the $4/gal range. The Camaro and Challenger is being aimed at a niche market. Unless that niche market can sustain the car, they may not enjoy the success as well as the Corvette - which GM sees about 30,000 units being sold a year.

I'd buy the Camaro and the Challenger to park next to the Mustang (just for variety) but the Challenger interior sucks, and the Camaro's instrumentation is for sh*t.

Funny how fast things change though. Gas here in CT is less than $3/gallon today.

Personally, I think the Camaro instrumentation and interior lighting is pretty cool. Granted I have only seen the publicity pictures, but there's a futuristic feel to the whole thing, especially the way even the door trim lights up when you turn the lighting on.

i see it tough times too, but i was thinking about the new camaro to park next to my 2006. then when the redesign 2014 mustang comes out, then i will have another car to park next to the other 3 in the driveway.
at least i will have chevy guys off my back and still have the flavor of both worlds. note: mustang will probably win out in my book every day. they give me the best deals for what i want. chevy just turns their heads....

As far as the 2010 Mustang is concerned ? No, I have no doubt that it will get smoked by the 2010 Camaro SS. I mean let's face it, 422HP vs 300HP. pretty much says it all.

However when the new 5.0 400HP DOHC w/6 speed trans. makes it's debut in the 2011 Mustang GT. That's when Mustang will retake the lead back from GM. As the Mustang will be closely matched with the Camaro in HP, and will also be significantly lighter in weight as well.


That being said. I also have no doubt, that when the 2011 GT debuts. The Camaro SS, will then be in for a very rude awakening. :devil:

I wouldn't be surprised if Ford cancels that idea. Heck, they already canceled 6.2.

Zoran, I highly doubt that. The 4.6L is pretty much at its end of its lifecycle.

I hope you're right. :nice:

He's right, Zoran ;)

Yep, it does look modern but the speedo gauge seems illegible and the 4-gauges are useless behind the shifter. It doesn't feel as inviting as the S197 interior but GM may change that on the actual car.

Well historically (as in 1967+) the Camaro has always offered the better performing package at a higher price point as well. Occasionally the Mustang would sneak in a sucker punch but for the most part the Camaro has been the faster better handling car.

IMO eventually you either realize the numbers aren't really that important, or you stop letting them bother you. For all of the F-bod's prowess its pretty much inaccessible beyond a few moments at a time (same for the Mustang as well) for most people. We are by and large bench racers.

The cool thing is that you can't really complain about the manual transmission offerings anymore... The Challenger SRT-8, Corvette, and GT500 all have the same TR-6060. :)

Now, what would be interesting is if we installed the LS3 into a S197 GT mated with the TR-6060:
The Ford Mustang GT SS LT4!

I agree, and would like to add that having better performance has not necessarily equaled better sales, which is what really matters to Ford and GM.
You've pretty much summed up this whole debate with that paragraph!

I'm afraid that would be heresy :jester:

The Mustang Gods from above would rain down a fiery wrath from the heavens above to pummel you into submission





:jester:

You must not have seen the banter about the Shelby TSB for clutch issues. All 07,08 and most 09's
are affected. So, it's not all that pretty tranny wise.

I wasn't aware of the TSB. What does it say and what is affected?

Since the Mustang GT coupes premium package cars are delivered at around 3415lbs, and supercharged with better wheels, tires and brakes still weigh around 3550, with changed out suspensions, these cars are still very fast and handle great. We all know that all these cars mentioned handle like pigs without changed out and balanced suspensions.

The problem is that everyone and the magazines keep comparing stock Mustangs to more expensive cars that weigh more.

If you take a stock Mustang GT coupe premium package, add engine bolt ons to get up to 305 310rwhp or so N/A, minus some weight for a suspension change out (including watts link) your still at about $36,500, and will eat those other cars for lunch on corners and equal their power at 355hp @ 3390lbs, except the Corvette of course, which will still cost you $8-9,000 more than your modded Mustang. Just my 2cents. Erik

So you mean the stock Mustang GT coupe can't outrun a Bugatti Veyron?!?? :)

It might if it was in a straight fall from 30,000 feet, but the flat front grill area would still be a dis-advantage I'm afraid. Erik

I think part of why the Mustang is getting bashed in comparison to the new Challenger and Camaro is that it is old. Remember when the 05' Mustangs first came out and all you read was about how stiff of chassis the convertible has and how great the Mustang handled. Now just a couple years later these are the sticking points that the journalists use to put down the Mustang, that and it's huge HP disadvantage to the competition in both V6 and V8 forms.

I think the only initial criticisms for the 05' Mustang was the cheap material used for the interior and many disliked the back end styling. For 10' Ford did address both of these areas. My only gripe at this point is that Ford has done a poor job in the improvement area. It seems that little to nothing has been done to the 09' compared to 05' models. I understand that the total restyle is just around the corner but I think they should have done little things like add 15-20HP here or there or maybe tweak the suspension a bit. The perfect example is to look at the major improvements Chevy made to the Corvette for 08'. Though it is the same body style as the original 05' C6 it saw a host of improvements including more HP, suspension and steering improvements and even a mid-cycle interior upgrade. Think about it why buy a loaded 09' GT for over $30,000 when you can get a low mile 05' GT for under $20,000....... Thats just how I see things.

In my opinion Ford has a great opportunity. Keep the 2010 Mustang lighter by several hundred pounds, and they would have a distinct advantage over the heavy Camaro. Price it under the Camaro, and give it a better aesthetic design. Lastly, provide an engine with forged internals on the standard GT.

With that, the Mustang will maintain dominance.

2010 may be a bit like the 1993 speaking strictly in terms of performance. However, 2011 will be absolutely nothing like 1994. :)

You mean the 2011 won't be slower then the 2010 like the 94 was to the 93?!?! What is Ford thinking!?!

:jester:

Ah, leave it to Chris to dredge up the painful things we would all sooner forget. :jester:

better than '96...

They fixed it all eventually :p

Yeah in 2003 Ford released some monster competetors like the 390hp cobra and 320hp mach1 to kick those 2003 camaros arses!

:jester:

Don't mean to nit-pick here but the Mach1 only had 305, and was a true competitor to the SS Camaro while the Cobra was in it's own league for its final run.

Sure it had 305hp ;) can't get to 320 without hitting 305 at one point. have you seen the dynos of 03 machs... equal or better then 2001 cobras which were rated 320hp.

Kinda like the 98 z28 had 305hp... sure gm..at the wheels maybe.


edit: and correct me if i'm wrong but wasn't it only the automatic machs factory rated at 305hp?

cool, I always thought they were underrated a little, but never by that much :nice:

which one did you not know was underrated the mach or the z28?

I meant the Mach when i posted, but the z28 too actually.

I knew both were underrated, but not by how much

Sweet!

couldnt find a bullitt on there :( lol

Don't forget that the 03-04 Cobra is underrated quite a bit too. Some owners have gotten as much as 370RWHP from a stock terminator!

those ones I knew about :drool:

I love underrating :grin:

Price - price means everything in the current market. Examples" Lincoln LS, '05 Ultimate Edtion - sticker just over $45K (read it) at dealer, 45k mlies - $15.5K; '06 Caddy XLR - sticker about $85K, at dealer $30K (8k miles).
A V6 Camaro - hardtop for about $30K. You've got to be nuts to pay that. Just nuts.

Found these pics yesterday....

note it has chrome wheels on one side and black on the other

??? I believe they start at $24k...

That looks pretty sweet :nice:

1993 over again, the cars now arent that ugly lol.


No offense to any fox owners!

technically its the same side of the car they're showing each time :P

but its true, each side of the car is different. It's a mocked up clay model showing more than one design at the same time

Is it just me, or does the back end in the second pic look like a Fiero?

As a follow-up reference, my Mach made 272.3rwhp / 293.8rwtq bone stock with ~4000-5000 miles.

22K actually

That torque!!! :drool:

they start at 23K for the base