2011 GT500 vs CTS-V Coupe
 

If posted already sorry

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QW-qF_Xzjl4

OUCH !!! GT500 4.4 0-60 Vs 4.1 for the CTSV. Watch out for the new Z28. I would say that the CTSV weighs more than the Z28 will, GM's got to be loving this. C'mon Ford....

Firstly the shelby driver missed a shift.



Secondly. CTS V PADDLE SHIFTERS!!


Third of all the cadi is at least 10-13K MORE then the shelby.



You put at least 5 more grand into the shelby = WIN

My post isn't about the CTSV, I really don't care about that caparison, difference in price or missed shifts. It's about that motor that will go into the Z28. You know GM is going to throw everything they have into the new Zcar, now that the price threshold is 50K plus. I love this type of competition, it's a win/win for both sides.

pcw

The GT500 driver needs some driving lessons

:agree:



BIG TIME

Look at the MPH.

^ yup, obviously the crappy start ruined the shelbys time

To bad there was no track comparisons, I would have love to see how the GT500 solid axle did against the CTSV. I just can't wait for Ford to finally add the IRS, then you will be looking at a fully loaded GT500 for 60K.

And the Shelby needs some bigger tires! It is tough to win when you can't get decent traction till 3rd gear.

CTS-V has launch control - huge benefit on 500+ hp cars. Give the Mustang a driver that can actually drive a manual, and it's interesting.

IRS would help in that department as well.

IRS is going to help in traction? off the line traction or cornering traction?

No, it would not.

[QUOTE=1 BULLITT;5925310]Agree totally...I want to see what his answer was :).

With respect to the Mustang, any model, Ford builds a balanced car for those who wish to have some fun. Being track ready is not the same as being track competitive. That is why there is an aftermarket.

This does speak well of the new z28 camaro. Same engine, less weight, Going to be great American Muscle. If it's better, then it's better. Just means ford will step up the Shelby. That said, I'm very happy with my new 5.0.

If the new Camaro beats the Shelby, I will simply look forward to watching the response from Ford. Who would have thunk the good old days of muscle cars is now??? I wonder how long it will last with the economy in the toilet and Greenies lurking trying to take away our fun.

No excuses. If that auto and engine are in the Z28, the Z will win with average drivers stock. Ford needs to get a clue and put something wider than a 9.5 rim on the back. Worrying about lesser cars getting a jump on you because of excessive wheelspin sux! The aftermarket should be there to make your car faster, not to put it where it should have been from the start.

I think all of this has been covered but:

Terminator owners would rip out the IRS for a SRA

The Cobra trapped higher so it will be faster with traction

A lot a car magazines cannot drive a GT500, Motor Trend being one of them

I doubt the Z28 will weigh less than a CTS-V, within 100 pounds?

We know Ford can easily upgrade the GT500 with a Whipple, 600 or 700 HP?

IRS will help in ALL areas of traction, and if you think otherwise, your fooling yourself. Making HP for RWD cars is easy, getting it to the ground is the hard part. Just look at the best handling production cars, do you see a solid/live axle, no you don't, why is that??? If Ford wants to be taken seriously as a top sports car, they need to start concentrating on how to get that 550 HP to the ground, you shouldn't have to be a professional driver to do so !!! Anybody can throw a bunch of money at something to make it better but if your spending 50K+ why should you have to?

And far as the weight, everyone is talking about just 100 lbs. off the front-end of the 2011 GT500 because of the all aluminum block, being the main reason for the better handling. Wouldn't that also work for GM as well ???? With the recent photos of the Z28 testing against a GT500, GM is fine tuning the car, Ford better up their game or they will get their a$$es handed to them.

pcw

What makes you think there not??The 11 gt 500 is a great car but their's always more to be had. The presure from G/M will just up the anti.

Well if your directing that question to me, I never said they weren't, I just suggested that they should be. The 2011 is a good car, I wouldn't say it's a great car. Ford has to decide what direction they want the GT500 to go in. Is it a sport coupe or a sports car, there is a big difference. It goes fairly fast in a straight line, but that's it. It does handle better than previous years but it's still not a great handling car in track situations.

Just to get the live axle to behave you need look at Griggs Racing GR40ST Rear Suspension Kit or something like it, 4-5K later your getting closer, but you still have the weight problem. The difference between a sport coupe and a sport car is weight. I would consider the GT500 more of a GT (grand touring) type of car where weight was an after thought. Ford realizes now that they have to address the weight issue but the problem is weight has to be address in the beginning/planning stages, not after. Ford needs to have a supercharged V8 with 550 HP to move it all that weight. Sports Car focus on weight as priority one and builds the car around that thought.

Don't get me wrong I like the GT500 but I really expect much more out of Ford for the price.

pcw

PCW,

Ford improved the GT500's handling for 2010 and 2011. The 120 weight loss for the GT500 is important because it came off of the nose of the car. The Z28 won't be that much lighter than the CTS and will have the same balance regardless. The only thing a Z28 will be handing a 2012 GT500 is a pink piece of paper and not his *** back. 500-600 HP is probably the limit of RWD on street tires so yes it will be difficult to launch a GT500. The CTS-V benefits from launch control to help manage everything. I can see launch control as an easy upgrade for the 2012 GT500.

Cheers,

Greg

+1 on Ford offering a launch control for the 2012 GT500 and Brembo equipped GTs. GM has been doing this in their sporty vehicles for some time now, and have it very well tuned. Given that the GT500 has a high tendency to break traction, this would really help take some of the finesse out of it for a driver new to the car. Make it defeatable and let those who choose not to use it turn it off.

Greg,

I do agree with the improved handling, as I already mentioned. I do disagree with you on the weight difference regarding the CTSV and the Z28. The CTSV is a Luxury sport coupe, lots of leather, heavier all power seats, more sound/road noise insulation for a quieter cabin, automatic, all that adds weight that the Zcar will not have. I have no dog in this fight, I just enjoy the competition. I did have a deposit on a 2011 GT500 but decided to go in a different direction. After all the options I wanted, it billed out at 57K. IMO way to much for that car. With that kind of money you are in real sports car territory.

pcw

Regarding weight, GM Media lists the Camaro SS at 3849 and the CTS-V at 4222 (manual trannies). I'm sure a blower, intercooler, etc will add over 150 pounds to the car. The Z28 will be well optioned and have bigger tires, brakes. I would not be surprised if a Z28 weighs over 4100 pounds. Even it does weigh less, the lower weight won't improve the balance the way the 2011 GT500 did. I see a 2012 GT500 (550 HP, 3800 lbs) beating a 2012 Z28 (556 HP, 4100 lbs) in a straight line if you can get it to hook up. Around a track is another story.

Agree with the straight line "if" you can get to hook up. Normal BHP to ground loss is about 12-15 % with a 2WD and 20-25% with AWD. I would say you are losing even more % with a solid axle. Not to mention the weight saving you would gain going to a IRS where most components are made from aluminum now. No question that an auto with launch control helps, assuming you gain a 10th of a second with each swift to 60 that 2 tenth faster over a manual, not to many cars get to 60 in first gear with a manual, depends on gears and redline.

If you look at the 2009 MT best handling cars, the Porsche Cayman S won that test. It didn't have the most HP, didn't have the a turbo/supercharger. What it did have was a weight of 3150 lbs, 3.4-liter 320-horse flat-six mid engine and a 7 speed PDK (auto). What the professional driver who drove all 10 cars stated about the Porsche was, it was "perfectly balanced " It is a car that can be driven very hard, very near the limit, off stability control, and still stay completely under control." In other words, the Best Driver's Car. (And, yes, the best sports car in the world.)"

So there it is, a 4.4 0-60, a 12.9 1/4, 103' 60-0 stopping and a 1.0g Max lateral. It's about the complete package, weight and balance, if you have that, everything else will fall into place. The link is below for the article, it's a good read. Just to be fair the GT500 placed in the middle in 5th.

http://www.motortrend.com/features/p...car/index.html

pcw

Sorry if I misread your post but SRA is more efficient than IRS. I'd use .88 for SRA and .87 for IRS to guess RWHP on a car with a manual transmission.

As 1trickpony points out, SRA is more efficient. In terms of frictional losses, SRA doesn't have the 4 CV joints to absorb power, and uses at least one, if not two, less bearings per side as well. From the diff to the wheels, the rotational inertia may or may not be less with the SRA vs. IRS, though I suspect it is less, which means less power 'lost' to spinning up the rotating components.

It's possible to screw up the design of an IRS so that it doesn't want to put power down properly. I believe the design compromises needed to attach the Cobra's IRS using the same hard points as the SRA resulted in the whole suspension binding under load. This can happen regardless of the types of bushings used.

The SRA has the advantage that the tires are always properly cambered (0 deg), and there is no bump steer or track change in squat, which would reduce the tires' available traction at launch.

There are lots of advantages to IRS with respect to ride and handling, but most of them simply don't apply in a 0-60 test.

the cayman S is alot more money the the GT500 and will get crushed on most tracks when compared to a performance pack 2011. Nice car though.

lol look whose last, suprise suprise!

Dr Evil,

Not sure what you been smoking, it's one thing to say that a GT500 will crush a SS or even a new Z28 around the track. To say it will crush a Cayman or any Porsche just shows your predigest and ignorance. Yes Porsche's are more expensive than a GT500 for a very good reason, they are as close to a track ready car off the showroom floor that you can get today, period. Have you ever driven a Porsche? Have you ever seen underneath a Porsche? They are absolutely top notch quality and fit and finish are second to none. Whereas Ford just started to paint their rear axle's on their top of the line "Sports Car", I guess they finally got tired of all the complaints about rusted rear axles in a 50K car. If you knew anything about Porsche you would know how ridiculous your statement really is. Thanks for the good laugh. :rofl2:

pcw

guess you upset PCW...he must own a Porsche....

sorry to be so ignorant....here is a nice video for your viewing pleasure.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aR7PIZhFUdc


for comparison here are the C&D lightning lap results from the same configuration at this track:

Mosler MT900S 02:45.9 LL5 2009
Dodge Viper SRT10 Coupe ACR 02:48.6 LL3 2008
Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 02:51.8 LL3 2009
KTM X-Bow 02:52.3 LLU 2009
Lamborghini Murcielago LP670-4 SV 02:53.9 LL5 2010
Ferrari 430 Scuderia 02:54.6 LL5 2008
Nissan GT-R 02:55.6 LL3 2009
Dodge Viper SRT10 02:57.4 LL3 2008
Ariel Atom 3 02:57.6 LLU 2009
Chevrolet Corvette Z06 02:58.2 LL3 2007
Chevrolet Corvette Grand Sport 02:58.8 LL2 2010
Nissan GT-R (all-season tires) 02:59.0 LL3 2009
Audi R8 5.2 FSI Quattro 02:59.5 LL4 2010
Ford GT 03:00.7 LL4 2006
Chevrolet Corvette Z06 03:01.1 LL3 2006
Chevrolet Corvette Z51 03:01.2 LL2
2008 Dodge Viper SRT10 Coupe 03:01.6 LL3 2006
Porsche 911 GT3 03:01.8 LL3 2007
Chevrolet Corvette Z51 03:03.6 LL2 2007
Cadillac CTS-V 03:04.0 LL2 2009
Lotus Exige S 03:04.5 LL3 2007
Audi R8 03:04.6 LL3 2007
Lotus Exige S 260 Sport 03:05.0 LL3 2009
BMW M3 03:05.4 LL2 2009
BMW M3 03:05.6 LL2 2008
Porsche Cayman S 03:05.8 LL3 2009
Porsche 911 Turbo 03:05.8 LL4 2007
Porsche 911 Carrera S 03:05.8 LL3 2009
Ford Shelby GT500 03:05.9 LL2 2007

I guess that '11 might run a little better than you thought huh? Hell the 07 model was right on top of the updated Cayman S.


PS. Make sure to watch that entire video it's less than 3 minutes long;)

On the I am right and everyone else is wrong department because I say so, fantasy beats facts every time. :roses:
Oh... REALLY?


:jester:

LMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:rofl2:

Doesn't seem odd that 3 different Porsche, all ran at different days and even different years have the exact time???? In fact it's the only 3 cars that have the exact same time in the entire list.



Porsche Cayman S 03:05.8 LL3 2009
Porsche 911 Turbo 03:05.8 LL4 2007
Porsche 911 Carrera S 03:05.8 LL3 2009

Here is something for you.

http://www.motortrend.com/features/1...car/index.html

Your super great handling 2007 GT500 didn't even make the cut, hmmm. Look the porsche's finished 1 and 2

I'm done with this. I wish the 2011 GT500 good luck and I will be watching for those best handling comparisons. If the GT500 is on top, then good for Ford and they obviously have been doing their homework. Like I said at the beginning, competition is a win/win for everyone, it keeps all the car manufacturers on their toes.

pcw

I'm sure you are "done with this" after you're fanboyish opinion got crushed. Those track times are from an independent test and if you pay close attention you'll notice the Cayman S and Carrera S were even run on the same day. As to how they got the exact same laptime? I don't know but you can read the article and contact Car and Driver to ask them.

The point of this is when you stick big tires and brakes under a stiff chassis and add lots of HP you get good track times. The 2011 GT500 definitely fits that bill and offers performance that will humble basically anything made at it's price point. Bang for the buck has always been the forte of domestic automakers.

Porsche makes great cars that offer some of the best vehicle dynamics out there. Your problem is that you confuse how a car feels while driving it with actual performance. The Cayman is a great car and offers a drive that few cars can compare with but to suggest it can outperform a 550HP GT500 with stiff suspension on a road course is a bit of a stretch. A better comparison will be that new Clubsport model coming out that will drop some weight and add a little power and more than likely get a good set of tires. That car might get close to the 2011 GT500 which would be a big accomplishment for a car with less than 350hp.

The article you posted demonstrates what I am saying. Notice the Z06 finished last is that test even though it would absolutely crush every car in that test on a racetrack. The article was about which car felt the best not performed the best. Obviously a 2007 GT500 doesn't belong in a test of this sort.

Winner, Dr. Evil. :nice:

I'm still looking for a definition to predigest... :rofl2::jester: I rarely post anything and it's even rarer for me to post anything about spelling or grammar, but I mean come on... predigest??? What is he preparing to eat or what did he eat that he needs to predigest something...

Been under a lot off Porsche,it's just a glorified V/W.IMO the only reason they top the Quality list is they don't make that many .These cars are not in the same class.Good luck with your Porshe PCW,now lets talk Mustang.

Finding insignificant points to counter the lack of what makes Mustangs ticks is naive at best, politely speaking, considering there are better and more accurate describtions available. The Porsche is caviar and the Mustang is cashew halves and pieces, so what? It is not who wins, it is who has the most fun and the amount of those who can afford the Mustang fun.

And now the Boss 302 is BACK, and from early reports it seems to be chewing the track up.

I find it curious that someone who doesn't own a Mustang enjoys hanging around Mustang forums and offering their insightful opinions.

Why does everyone think the z28 is gonna weigh more than the ctsv coupe?? The ctsv coupe is way lighter! And it is faster then the gt500 especially from a stop! The z28 is just gonna be a 2012 camaro ss with a blower and appearance and interior options which will probably make it heavier than the normal camaro!!

And if you have driven a gt500 you would know you can't can traction untill 3rd gear!! And by that time the ctsv is long gone! Especially in the city!

Moving thread to 'Which is Better' section.

And cleaned up thread . . . a bit.

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GM would argue otherwise, stock for stock, the Camaro gets off the line better than the Mustang even with the launch control shut off.

Dont get me wrong, the 3 link in the Mustang is great overall, but the stock geometry and bushings leave alot on the table in the launch department.

You are very misinformed...

The CTS-V Coupe is only about 30 pounds lighter than the sedan, the coupe weighs 4238 pounds.

The F5 Z/28 will come in under the CTS-V, there is no way the car is going to gain nearly 400 pounds of weight going from the SS to the Z/28 and the Z/28 is going to be an SS with a blower in much the same way the GT500 is a GT with a blower (which is to say it will be much more comprehinsive than just slapping a blower on the base V8 car and calling it a day).

Interior and exterior stuff will probably be a wash in terms of real weight, I'm betting that going from the the SS to the Z/28 will add maybe 200 pounds so I'm saying right around 4100 lbs.

How am I misinformed?? The v is faster than the gt500 and the z28 will be heavier than the ss! That is info from my local chevy dealer! And the v vs gt500 just watch the YouTube videos if you don't believe me! I think your the misinformed one!

The V is just slightly faster than the GT500. Your comment about the Z28 being "an SS with a blower" is quite far off. The Z28 is getting magnetic ride control, unique body bits, and the LS-A motor that might make more power than in the CTS-V.

And yes, I've watched the videos that are online between the CTS and GT500. If you want to get real technical, the C&D Lightning lap comparison had the CTS-V coupe put down a 3:04.2, and the GT500 with PP did a 3:04.0. Also, there's about 400 lbs. of curb weight difference. 3824 for the GT500 and 4238 for the V coupe. I'd say, all things equal, that traction is the limiting factor for the GT500 right now.

How about we wait until the car arrives instead of internet racing these cars? (Of course more than half of internet car forums would disappear with that logic. :jester:)

Lol wow, GT500 VS CTSV VS Porsche VS Z28, IRS vs SRA. All around the place on this one. Which would I take would depend on the nature of what I intended it for. Lots of modding and racing GT500, Just a cruiser or hot DD I'd take the CTSV. As far as IRS being better for Drag racing? Lol Tell that to my GTO. It handles smoother (not better) around corners than my Z28 but would get dusted off the line stock for stock and its a stick vs my Z's Auto. I go through tires much quicker on it even with TC always on (Z doesn't have TC). It takes less time to wear the inside edge of the rears than it did the centers on the Z, and I kept it sideways.

Bottom line, the CTS-V is a beast.

The Z28 will be too.

And the Boss..well..duh!

We should enjoy it while it lasts!

The IRS under pinning the goat is pretty archaic Slim, the IRS in the new Camaro is about a magnitude in improvement as the current 3 link in the Mustang is over the 4 link that underpinned the Fox/SN95/New Edge cars - okay maybe not that much, but its still a pretty old design, IIRC the IRS in the GTO was one of the last to be directly attatched to the body rather than ride in its own subframe.

Ya I'm aware, guess it was a little unfair comparing a 3700 lb car to a 3300 one as far as handling goes but I'd imagine both IRS designs react the same way taking off causing the tires to cant under body squat (which the GTO does real bad haven't seen it first hand in a new Camaro) putting more load on the inside of the tires than the center reducing take off grip.