Ponies on The Run (Again)
5/24/07, 07:02 AM
#9121
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There is nothing strange about your graphs. They usually have variations like that.
The odd graphs are mine. They show only 0.2HP difference between 0 and 5 smoothing. My tuner took time to adjust things so the computer wouldn't "fight itself" too much. He had some trouble with a drop in the spark advance near the peak as the computer tried to change the parameters to what it wanted. He would have liked to advanced it more, but this tune allowed for very smooth building of power. It really seems to be a 91 tune not really a 93. He said it might run on 89, but I tried it and it knocks.
The odd graphs are mine. They show only 0.2HP difference between 0 and 5 smoothing. My tuner took time to adjust things so the computer wouldn't "fight itself" too much. He had some trouble with a drop in the spark advance near the peak as the computer tried to change the parameters to what it wanted. He would have liked to advanced it more, but this tune allowed for very smooth building of power. It really seems to be a 91 tune not really a 93. He said it might run on 89, but I tried it and it knocks.
A better explanation would be that your tuner adjusted the knock sensors to not pull timing as readily.
5/24/07, 07:05 AM
#9122
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After looking at some dynographs from problem cars I have worked on in the past, that graph is very indicative of an ignition problem. I suggest you replace plugs and possibly swap coils with another car.
Also, the KN intake is not helping power. When SCT did testing on all the intakes the KN made 30-50% less than every other intake out there. The KN only picked up 5RWHP, when most intakes were getting 10-15RWHP.
KN's intake is designed to work with the stock tune (this is one of the selling points that they advertise). To work with the stock tune they make the area where the MAF installs very small, almost as restrictive as stock. This is to keep the Air/Fuel close to stock. The larger aftermarket intakes require a tune.
Also, the KN intake is not helping power. When SCT did testing on all the intakes the KN made 30-50% less than every other intake out there. The KN only picked up 5RWHP, when most intakes were getting 10-15RWHP.
KN's intake is designed to work with the stock tune (this is one of the selling points that they advertise). To work with the stock tune they make the area where the MAF installs very small, almost as restrictive as stock. This is to keep the Air/Fuel close to stock. The larger aftermarket intakes require a tune.
5/24/07, 09:26 AM
#9123
Thanks for your input, Justin.
I've also e-mailed Dynojet tech support to get their take on it. I'll post their reply when I get it.
I've also e-mailed Dynojet tech support to get their take on it. I'll post their reply when I get it.
5/24/07, 10:13 AM
#9124
Team Mustang Source
Justin,
to pick your brain a little now that you are mentioning ignition. I have a set-up similar to TacoBills, except for gearing and the plates he's installing this weekend, and how beneficial would the HT0 (I think that's the plug) be to the car. Would aftermarket coil packs also help ?? (does anyone other than GMS make them)...
I'm seriously looking to go FI, whipple, in about a year or so and will probably not get CMDP or pullies. Should I consider waiting until FI to worry about ignition upgrades ?
Thanks for your help !!
to pick your brain a little now that you are mentioning ignition. I have a set-up similar to TacoBills, except for gearing and the plates he's installing this weekend, and how beneficial would the HT0 (I think that's the plug) be to the car. Would aftermarket coil packs also help ?? (does anyone other than GMS make them)...
I'm seriously looking to go FI, whipple, in about a year or so and will probably not get CMDP or pullies. Should I consider waiting until FI to worry about ignition upgrades ?
Thanks for your help !!
5/24/07, 10:57 AM
#9125
Dynojet tech has replied. Actually, he's more than a 'tech', he's the VP of Dynojet Research Inc. 
Bill those runs look a little suspicious, but certainly not the worst we've seen.
We can rule out a "dirty RPM pickup", because as you can see, when you graph these runs that the jagged trend exists when viewed vs. speed. On the Modular Fords, it's difficult to get a "dirty RPM pickup", because as you know, they have a COP (coil on plug) arrangement which mandates our primary inductive lead to be clipped on the low tension side of the coil. Some dyno shops have RPM pickup issues when they clip on the high tension side of the coil, that being the spark plug wires in most cases.
How about your driveline? Are you still running stock wheels and tires? If you're not, then this could very well be the root of the problem. I can't count how many times I've seen "Chinese knock off wheels" on newer Mustangs that are less than perfect in regards to balance, concentricity, etc etc. You also mentioned 4.10 gears, and normally this would not induce the trend you're seeing.
If it's not the driveline, then perhaps look to the PCM calibration. Have you ran you car on the dyno before? Did you perform multiple modifications to the powertrain (driveline and engine) at one time, or did you change the combo, test it, change the combo, test it....etc etc? Doug at Bama Chips does a fine job on the calibrations for the 2005+ Mustangs, but without supporting data, it's difficult for us to assess your dyno runs. If you notice that the jagged trend starts at about peak torque, which is peak cylinder pressure, which is the most likely place for detonation to occur. Our latest release, the Dynojet Datalink Module for OBD2 applications allows any Dynojet dyno owner to monitor and log critical OBD2 data right into the dyno run file. This industry first, industry exclusive device works on ALL 1996+ vehicles, and works especially well on Ford vehicles. We're really hoping that dyno owners "step up" and add this to their dyno, as it's rather critical to monitor / log exactly what's going on with the vehicle you're testing. In your case, it would be interesting to see if the spark advance "to a step down" at these points where the jagged trend is apparent, and if it didn't, and the vehicle was actually detonating, then perhaps the PCM tune has limited or removed the knock retard feature. Like I mentioned, Doug's calibrations are usually spot on, but as you know, our options for pump gas are spotty at best here in the desert southwest. Drop a 1/2 can of Torco in the tank and make some more dyno runs, if the jagged trend goes away, it's in the tune, if it doesn't, it's in the driveline.
I've attached a run (jpeg) from an 06 automatic Mustang GT. Notice the "extra data" that was captured during the run? Also notice the "step" right in the middle of the power curve, and then look at the delivered spark advance.......see anything interesting, I know it's not dramatic, but when a PCM pulls 3-4 degrees, you're going to "see it" on a Dynojet dyno.
I will reply back with some answers he's requesting. Interesting to note how well known Doug is in the performance tuning community.
5/24/07, 11:47 AM
#9127
5/24/07, 11:53 AM
#9128
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I would forward that to Doug, too, to see what he says.
Brian, or Leo, should take their car to the same place.
If their graphs are jagged, it's a dyno issue.
If their graphs are smooth, it's a car issue - and most likely it's ignition (or tune) and not driveline.
Brian, or Leo, should take their car to the same place.
If their graphs are jagged, it's a dyno issue.
If their graphs are smooth, it's a car issue - and most likely it's ignition (or tune) and not driveline.
5/24/07, 12:40 PM
#9129
I would forward that to Doug, too, to see what he says.
I think I will.
Brian, or Leo, should take their car to the same place.
I don't think they're willing to cut loose a Benjamin just to see how the lines are in their graphs.
If their graphs are jagged, it's a dyno issue.
I'm betting it will have the same appearance of not being smooth.
If their graphs are smooth, it's a car issue - and most likely it's ignition (or tune) and not driveline.
It won't be smooth if ran at this facility. The above attached pic of the dyno graph is from a 100% stock 07 GT.
I think I will.
Brian, or Leo, should take their car to the same place.
I don't think they're willing to cut loose a Benjamin just to see how the lines are in their graphs.
If their graphs are jagged, it's a dyno issue.
I'm betting it will have the same appearance of not being smooth.
If their graphs are smooth, it's a car issue - and most likely it's ignition (or tune) and not driveline.
It won't be smooth if ran at this facility. The above attached pic of the dyno graph is from a 100% stock 07 GT.
5/24/07, 12:53 PM
#9130
Team Mustang Source
I would forward that to Doug, too, to see what he says.
I think I will.
Brian, or Leo, should take their car to the same place.
I don't think they're willing to cut loose a Benjamin just to see how the lines are in their graphs.
If their graphs are jagged, it's a dyno issue.
I'm betting it will have the same appearance of not being smooth.
If their graphs are smooth, it's a car issue - and most likely it's ignition (or tune) and not driveline.
It won't be smooth if ran at this facility. The above attached pic of the dyno graph is from a 100% stock 07 GT.
I think I will.
Brian, or Leo, should take their car to the same place.
I don't think they're willing to cut loose a Benjamin just to see how the lines are in their graphs.
If their graphs are jagged, it's a dyno issue.
I'm betting it will have the same appearance of not being smooth.
If their graphs are smooth, it's a car issue - and most likely it's ignition (or tune) and not driveline.
It won't be smooth if ran at this facility. The above attached pic of the dyno graph is from a 100% stock 07 GT.
5/24/07, 01:13 PM
#9131
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But, from what Bill just said about the stock GT, it really is starting to point toward the Dyno. And I still can't believe that that graph is on Smoothing 5!
Ultimately, I can't see how a vehicle can have that kind of HP and TQ output. You would think you would feel SOMETHING in the car with that kind of jumping around... whether it be ignition, tuning, driveline, whatever. You have the HP, then you don't... then it's there, then it isn't. You think you'd feel some sort of bucking. That's why it has to be the way the dyno is interpreting the data from the car.
Bill's SAE 5 got pretty smooth - can you imagine this other guy's tune at SAE 0??
5/24/07, 01:36 PM
#9132
So if you don't mind the Lie Detector look (as if I took the test
), they seem to put out accurate numbers.
5/24/07, 01:37 PM
#9133
5/24/07, 01:42 PM
#9134
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In his case, I think he needs a Smoothing 7 or 8.
5/24/07, 02:06 PM
#9135
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I'm pretty impressed with the time and detail he is putting into it... Nice to see a company with great customer service!
Still no tracking number from Doug... Might be a really long holiday weekend!
Believe it or not, even the wife is looking forward to the tune.. She likes to play as well!
5/24/07, 02:14 PM
#9136
I'm pretty impressed with the time and detail he is putting into it... Nice to see a company with great customer service!
Still no tracking number from Doug... Might be a really long holiday weekend!
Believe it or not, even the wife is looking forward to the tune.. She likes to play as well!
Still no tracking number from Doug... Might be a really long holiday weekend!
Believe it or not, even the wife is looking forward to the tune.. She likes to play as well!
You got the JLT right? I would think he usually stocks those. It's the C&L's that are always on backorder.
5/24/07, 03:40 PM
#9137
Tasca Super Boss 429 Member
As Justin goes to great lengths to point out.
I am not an expert on this subject.
I (IMHO) agree with Tom.
I am not an expert on this subject.
How many GTs have you dynoed to know that his graphs aren't strange?
(Edited for compliance)
A better explanation would be that your tuner adjusted the knock sensors to not pull timing as readily.
You are correct sir. Heaven forbid I post in the vernacular rather than the exact terminology in a "general Mustang chat" thread.
(Edited for compliance)
A better explanation would be that your tuner adjusted the knock sensors to not pull timing as readily.
You are correct sir. Heaven forbid I post in the vernacular rather than the exact terminology in a "general Mustang chat" thread.
And would help nail down the "jagged line" issue.
But, from what Bill just said about the stock GT, it really is starting to point toward the Dyno. And I still can't believe that that graph is on Smoothing 5!
Ultimately, I can't see how a vehicle can have that kind of HP and TQ output. You would think you would feel SOMETHING in the car with that kind of jumping around... whether it be ignition, tuning, driveline, whatever. You have the HP, then you don't... then it's there, then it isn't. You think you'd feel some sort of bucking. That's why it has to be the way the dyno is interpreting the data from the car.
Bill's SAE 5 got pretty smooth - can you imagine this other guy's tune at SAE 0??
But, from what Bill just said about the stock GT, it really is starting to point toward the Dyno. And I still can't believe that that graph is on Smoothing 5!
Ultimately, I can't see how a vehicle can have that kind of HP and TQ output. You would think you would feel SOMETHING in the car with that kind of jumping around... whether it be ignition, tuning, driveline, whatever. You have the HP, then you don't... then it's there, then it isn't. You think you'd feel some sort of bucking. That's why it has to be the way the dyno is interpreting the data from the car.
Bill's SAE 5 got pretty smooth - can you imagine this other guy's tune at SAE 0??
5/24/07, 04:49 PM
#9138
Changing gears...
My friend has graciously let me borrow both his gear puller set and harmonic balancer installation tool, along with a 18mm impact socket. Attachment 26681
I downloaded my revised 91R tune that Doug sent me into the Xcal2 lastnight. At first, even though the file has a .ll3 extension, it would not download into the handheld. I knew at that point that my current version of Live Load needed to be updated to the latest version, 1.3.1. Once updated, I had no problems updating my Xcal2.
I only requested 2 tunes this time around, the 91R and 87P. I felt no need to request the 91T or any of the other options.
Being that these newly revised tunes compensate for the CMDP's, I loaded the Xcal2 with them only. The 91R, I loaded twice since I had 2 memory banks, one being for back-up (for whatever reason).
All that's left now is for Saturday to roll around.
My friend has graciously let me borrow both his gear puller set and harmonic balancer installation tool, along with a 18mm impact socket.
Attachment 26681I downloaded my revised 91R tune that Doug sent me into the Xcal2 lastnight. At first, even though the file has a .ll3 extension, it would not download into the handheld. I knew at that point that my current version of Live Load needed to be updated to the latest version, 1.3.1. Once updated, I had no problems updating my Xcal2.
I only requested 2 tunes this time around, the 91R and 87P. I felt no need to request the 91T or any of the other options.
Being that these newly revised tunes compensate for the CMDP's, I loaded the Xcal2 with them only. The 91R, I loaded twice since I had 2 memory banks, one being for back-up (for whatever reason).
All that's left now is for Saturday to roll around.
5/24/07, 04:58 PM
#9139
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I could always go up and pick it up, he lives only 2.5 hours away... Well, that's before the tune!
5/24/07, 06:11 PM
#9140
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I know they say not to pull it on with the bolt, but if somebody can give me a good reason I'd love to hear it. You could use your factory bolt to pull it on... then back it out to install the new bolt.
I've always used the stock bolt to pull it on with no problems (and still use the stock bolt).
I can't wait for Saturday, either! I have an engine and transmission to install! I would call in tomorrow, but I have to work my scheduled day before and after a holiday in order to get paid for the holiday.
