HOSS429

BIG block stang = muscle .
small block stang = pony ..
so my stang has been both in the 11 years i`ve had it .

Stage_3

That a boy Gary!
Makes sense, right?!

shaneyusa

I too am in line with Tony. American street car with big horse power and torque from a V8 or bigger... Muscle car to me.

Ford GT is not a muscle car... It is a race bred domestic exotic.

AlsCobra

Nope. I'm not agreeing with y'all. The muscle cars kinda started with the big full body domestics. The impallas, superbees, Chargers, galaxy's, chevelles, etc. all bigger cars that the pony cars. Don't know if there should be an overall length of the car or not. Although I would classify the 71-73 mustang a muscle car before I called it a pony car since it was as big as the Torino.

2k7gtcs

Mustang was not a muscle car. Except maybe the Boss 429. It was a pony car. Now is call it a pony car and maybe a sporty car. Not a sports car mind you. But there are levels of mustang. The ecoboost sporty/pony. The v6 pony. The GT sporty/pony. The gt350 sports car maybe. The last gen gt500 yeah that's a modern muscle car.
And that's just the modern era cars.

But when you look back at 65 it was a pony car in its own category and with a 289, and later a 351 or 302 it was not a muscle car. Maybe the 390 and definitely the cobra jets and such but that was where they knew they didn't have a muscle car and we're trying to make it one.

3point7

The definition of a muscle car as it applies to the muscle car era was to put a large powerful engine in a small car. Watch some documentaries on the subject. The original muscle car was the Pontiac GTO. It was not a "big full body domestic." It was Pontiac's small car. People have come to mistakenly believe that muscle cars were big cars because by comparison to modern day cars they are relatively big. In the muscle car era, however, they were not considered big cars. The Mustang today is considered by many to be a big car even though its about the same size as a late 60's Mustang. In the late 60's the Mustang was considered a compact car.

AlsCobra

But the GTO was considerably bigger than the pony cars. The road runner was a beast. Everything out there was bigger than the Camaro, mustang, and challenger. Pretty sure for sake of the argument, the mustang was the original pony car and those 3 pretty much alone. Kinda agree with gary about the big block option maybe. But not till 69 for the mustang.

3point7

The GTO actually came out before the Mustang was even on the market and was really just a reworked Pontiac Tempest. It was considered a small car (actually midsize) because the other sedans in the Pontiac lineup were all bigger and heavier. Trust me on this Al, I have watched a lot of documentaries on the origins of muscle cars and the muscle car era. The whole idea behind a muscle car was to put a big powerful engine in a small car. The term "Pony Car" originated from a magazine article that was specifically about the Mustang precisely because of the running horse logo. It was never an actual class of car. In later years the term Pony Car was attached to cars like the Camaro because they were the direct competition for the Mustang but that is just something that enthusiasts did. It's not an actual class of car just as there is no such thing as a 64 1/2 Mustang. They were just early 1965 models. It wasn't until sometime in the early 1970's that Mustang enthusiasts dubbed all the cars built from April to August as 64 and 1/2 models. As far as Ford is concerned, they're 65's. You will never find a Mustang car title that says "Year Model 1964 1/2" Cars like the Chevelle were also smaller than a lot the big sedans that GM was selling at the time. So even though a Chevelle by today's standards is a big old boat, at that time is was not because by comparison to the other GM sedans it was pretty small.

AlsCobra

I know what you're saying. The first GTO was in 64. Pretty sure the big block option is what coined the muscle car label. Regardless the mustang was never called a muscle car until maybe 69 with the body change and that is still subject to only the big block cars. So to the original argument, the mustang is a pony car. Maybe crossed into muscle car labeling around 69 for a few years but certainly not with a small block or V6.

3point7

You should go back and read post #2 on this thread. Could've saved yourself some typing.

At any rate, the reason that big blocks were the preferred engine choice during the hay day of the the muscle car era was because at that time the key to getting more power was by using more displacement. That, however, is not the case now. We are getting well over 500 hp out of what are essentially small block V8's. Todays V6 Mustang and Camaro would outrun most of the stuff from the muscle car era. If we were to apply the original definition of what constitutes a muscle car, a powerful engine in a small car, to today's lineup of cars than oddly enough the Focus RS would be the more true definition of a muscle car in Ford's lineup. lol

AlsCobra

You're just dying to call your car a muscle car. Lmao
There's nothing official. Doesn't matter what car God doctrine you subscribe to.

Is your mustang a muscle car? NO it a pony car.
Is your Boss 429 a muscle car? Sure
Is your GT500 a muscle car? I suppose
Is your GT350 a muscle car? NO it's a pony car.
Is your Camaro in any variation a muscle car? NO it's a pony car.
Is your chevelle a muscle car? Yep
Is your Torino a muscle car? Yep
Your big block Camaro is not a muscle car but your small block chevelle is.
Etc.
Etc.
Etc.

Car and driver may disagree. This is how I was taught by true life car gods. A family of mechanics, hot rodders, and drag racers. But maybe I'm misinformed. Lmao

3point7

Oh man, you really are that dense aren't you? No I do not consider a V6 Mustang to be a muscle car. The muscle car era ended long ago and as it happens I agree that a muscle car should at least have a V8 to even be considered. If you had bothered to read any of my posts on this thread you would not only be better educated you would also know that I don't even really consider the Mustang a true sports car. It's a cheaply built boulevard cruiser at best. Just because today's V6 Mustangs and Camaro's can out perform most cars from the muscle car era does not mean they are muscle cars. There's plenty of modern day sedans that can do the same thing. But by all means, feel free to keep listening to your hot rod gods, they have done a bang up job filling your head full of nonsense while you guys stand around some old rusted heap drinking PBR.

AlsCobra

Lmao don't try and be insulting. I'm pulling your chain man. And take it easy on PBR, it's unamerican.
In all seriousness, is the mustang a muscle car? I would have to say yes for about 3-4 years in the big block configuration and it's really hard to deny that. But by all means please keep educating me. Lol

3point7

That's why you have to read all the posts Al, not just some of them. That's why I suggested you go back and read post # 2 because if you had you just might have found where I said . . .


You are hereby educated. Next time read everything before you post.

AlsCobra

Nah. I'm not gonna read your short stories. I don't think my short post or your full story said anything differently. Guess we should just lock the thread after you post next time. Lol. Have a day man.

3point7

lol Yes, you know all about getting threads locked. You've been the reason that so many have.

AlsCobra

I have since repented and turned my life around. Don't make me go dark again.

Mustang Freak

bobs69

What does your co-worker drive? Where is his muscle car?

kcoTiger

Imagine sitting on 850+ HP on 305's in the rear.

There was an argument that the smaller-engined cars these days would be considered muscle cars compared to muscle cars (I, unlike everyone else here, believe the muscle car was one thing: 4 wheels, a steering wheel, a seat, a live axle and the most power the mfg. could fit under the hood and not be sued into oblivion). The problem with that is that when you compare those current V6's to today's V8's, they're still producing less power. In a very real way, there is STILL no replacement for displacement. My V8 Trinity will out-power all but the most technologically advanced V6's on the planet. I will also submit that, were V8's being researched as much as V6 and 4's are, they too would be producing upwards of 1000 HP safely in street-legal vehicles off the lot.

Comparing cars from two different eras is a good way to render whatever argument you're trying to make completely illegitimate.