As is with many forums, a lot of typing being done discussing the blame and where to mount it. I don't think anyone can argue with the fact that much of this is their own fault. If you boil off all of the BS, you'll be left with one thing and that is GREED. When you look at where the majority of the big 3s profits have come from in the most recent decade, you will see that it was the large, gas guzzling, 4000lb+ vehicles. I can't remember if I read it here or on BON, but someone said that the US automakers should've been working on more fuel efficient cars 10 years ago, but largely (due to greed) didn't do that. Instead, they kept feeding us 4000lb 3 and 4 hundred horsepower vehicles that get 10 MPG. Well, the hammer dropped, and it dropped in a hurry. The Greedy guys got caught with their pants down. Now, instead of being prepared for the eventual increase in fuel prices, we find ourselves trying to figure out how to survive. Talk about hitting the ball off your back foot, we'll be lucky to weather the storm.

Too many executives in too many manufacturers make too much and do too little. Union people expecting full pensions and fully funded benefit plans are rediculous. No one with a real job gets any of that garbage. We'd ALL love to have that stuff. In the IT industry, you're very lucky to ever get a raise these days. That doesn't stop fuel, food, medicine and every other thing you can name from increasing in cost. Oh, and we PAY for our benefits every single paycheck. Oh, you want money to try to retire? Well, join the 401K plan which the company CONTRIBUTES to, but you largely fund yourself. The government and unions have to realize that their jobs and compensation habits can no longer be tolerated in todays society.

OFF SOAPBOX.

 

Mike, as much as I respect you and teachers across the country, you hit the nail on the head but forgot the other piece. Healthcare costs HAVE risen 50% in the last 6 years. All the MORE reason why teachers and school administrators should be helping shoulder that burden. HOWEVER, as opposed to that alternative, we choose to lay it on the taxpayers to shoulder instead. Meanwhile my friend, the same exact thing has happened to the REST of us and we don't have the teachers union to protect us or the never ending well of money (taxpayers via school tax increases) to go back to and simply make more to pay for it all.

Seriously this time.

 

While you can say that the Big 3 are "greedy" for selling 4,000 lb trucks and SUVs that get horrid gas mileage, you have to lay some of the blame on the people who bought them. Its the customers who made the F150 the top selling vehicle for over 30 years, last time I checked. Where I work, people would buy an F150 as the "car to have", as a family vehicle, and NEVER use it for what it was built for, a durable work truck. It is entirely Ford's, GM's and Chrysler's fault for making vehicles that, at the time, pepole wanted and wanted in boatloads? No, I don't think so. They offered what people wanted to buy. Now, with gas the way it is, they are scrambling. You know what would have happened if they stopped making all those F150s back about 4 years ago, they would have lost more money than they already have. While I agree some of the blame is on the maker, the consumer has to take some as well.

 

I was in DC not to long ago speaking with some representatives (mostly about healthcare policies) and this topic came up in discussion. They basicly said that because of the investment the companies have in this country (economy, jobs) etc. that these companies will not go under, that the government will bail them out. They will not do anything, however, until the last minute though I assure you.

 

I agree. We always hear stories how Big 3 are not building vehicles that people want.

Well during past 15 years or so - they did, since big SUVs and trucks were the vehicles that people wanted.

 

So true, I work for a company and one of its client has majority union workers and you should see the fit these people make when they go from fully paid medical benefits to paying like 50 a month for family coverage, and how their pension seems too low, On no my free money is too low, i want more free money! You are making twice my salary, not paying for benefits and getting a pension and you are complaining to me?

 

I hear ya on that front. For me, its the local teachers that complain. They were getting the best medical coverage at the taxpayers expense, and now after the newest contract, they still cry poor when they are now only paying 10% for their coverage for the entire family, and yet they got a 5% raise! How they can strike is beyond me. How does this help the kids?

 

Buy Domestic! Boycott Imports! Keep More Dollars in the USA!


KC

 

So is my Ford Fusion, built in Mexico, a domestic car?

And is my mom's Toyota Camry, built in Kentucky, import?

 

Of course the blame is with the manufacturers. You can't blame the public for it. And here's why: look at what the import competition has been doing, namely Toyota. Sure, they have trucks, too, but they didn't bet their entire strategy on it. If they could design a fleet of smaller, fuel efficient cars, what was Ford's excuse?

I'll answer that for you: Short term profits vs. long term strategy. One company bet on the former, while the other planned for the latter.

 

So I guess you have a crystal ball and could anticipate gasoline going over $4 a gallon, and oil going north of $140 a barrel, in the snap of a finger, while everyone else had no clue? And where did I say, in my previous post, that they shouldn't take some of the blame? I said they were greedy for selling those vehicles. And greed equals blame in most peoples eyes! But I also posted that the public is to take some of the blame (which means the auto industry needs blame too, just not 100% of it), as they were the ones fueling the demand for SUV's and trucks. If you sold something that make you oodles of money, would you stop selling it, or curtail the offering, if people were still clammering for your product? Didn't think so. That would be like saying, "sorry everyone, I know you want to buy F150s by the hundreds of thousands, but we don't want to sell them to you". "Main reason is they get horrid gas mileage". Yet the public didn't care they got 14 miles per gallon, when gas was only $2.50 a gallon. The public knew, what they got, but still wanted them, and bought them in droves!!

People want to crucify the auto industry when they don't sell what people want, but when people are buying pickups and SUV's for their daily drivers, and getting what the public wants, and gas shoots over $4 a gallon, and the owners can't afford to fuel them, its 100% the auto industry's fault for offering them the vehicle they wanted? Last time I checked, the auto industry doesn't tell you what to buy. Its your choice to purchase a truck that for a large percentage of owners, was never to be used what it was really intended for, which was as a truck (i.e work, towing, hauling). I've seen some come back off lease, and the insides of the beds are spotless, and this is without a bedliner (that means they used it like a car), but bought a truck instead.

Again, I never said the auto industry shouldn't take some blame, but you can't lay 100% of it on them. We bought the gas guzzlers, and who's fault is that?

Can I ask you something? Are you excited by the news that the BIG 3 are in trouble, and the Japanese are doing well? Do you really think that the government would let one of the BIG 3 go under? Do you know what kind of ramifications that would have on the economy? You think we're in a recession now? Just imagine what it would be like without a MAJOR American auto maker closed down. The trickle down effect would be ENORMOUS!!! Hundreds of thousands of workers would be out of a job. And not just at the car maker, but suppliers wouldn't need so many people, and those suppliers contacts wouldn't need so many, and so forth. I think you get the picture. You should root for the BIG 3 to make it through, many peoples' livelyhoods depend on it!!!

RANT OVER!!!

 

I'd say that your Fusion is a domestic car build abroad; the Camry is a foreign car build here. There are really two issues. Where are the jobs? and Where is the income / profits? So they make things a bit complex. Altogether though, all of the back office and profit from your Fusion goes to a US Corporation; the same for the Toyota go to a foreign corporation.

Based on that, IMHO Fusion is domestic, Camry is import. However, the other question is -- Why do Toyota's US Workers work for less than Ford's? And because of that, why does Ford have to go to Mexico to get wages that rival Toyota's in KY? That is probably a US Law problem.

 

You can blame the public for some of it. In the 90's , Ford had the Mondeo here as the Contour. They also had the Festiva, a b class car, the Escort and the Focus. Did the public switch over to these cars and abandon trucks forever? NO. The didn't buy them, not while gas was cheap. The public made the F series the biggest selling vehicle for the last two decades up until about a couple of months ago (The F150 is number one again last month, by the way).

So what was Ford to do? Tell the US public, "No, you can't have the trucks you want. We're telling you to buy small cars and we're not going to sell you trucks because someday gas prices will go up!" That would have gone over well. Should they have focused on segments that where sales were diminishing (small cars) and ignored the increased demand by the public for trucks and SUVs because someday gas prices were going to go up? That would have went over well with the stock holders. Everybody jumped on truck and SUV train. Even Porsche has an SUV.

Now that gas is over $4 a gallon, the public is panicking and trucks have fallen out of fashion. So now that's the automakers' fault that the public doesn't want trucks anymore? Time change, trends change. It's like blaming the clothing manufacturers for people buying leisure suits in the 70's or MC Hammer pants in the late 80s/early '90s.

Toyota thought the truck boom was going to last too. They didn't see the surge in oil prices coming, either. They invested billions in that new Texas truck plant and are now trying to save face by saying, "Oh we'll just build small cars there instead".

Ford has been watching the trends too, but didn't expect the gas price surge. They were hoping for a gradual transition back to cars with crossovers. Remember that 2005 was supposed to be the Ford's "Year of the Car".

 

Red Star: This is meaningless--none of these compensation figures are adequate if you have to live in or around Detroit to earn it...

 

What do you mean. I live in the Chicago area which is more expensive to live and can live comfortably for half those figures.

 

Knight: I'm sure you can live in Chicago on half those figures. You could live in Detroit on half those figures. But living in Detroit on those figures is sketchy--living in Detroit on half those figures is tragedy...

Actually, living in Detroit on any figures is tragedy...