Slims00ls1z28

Lets see 2 local dealerships located across the street from each other zip 38134. 1 Ford 1 Chevy. The Ford has 34 total mustangs: 6 base V6, 14 Premium V6 (hmm more premium V6 than base V6 none true base as their prices are a minimum of 3K over the "20K base price), 9 premium GT's, 1 base GT, 2 premium vert GT's, 2 premium vert V6. Dealership across the street 1 Camaro an LT which although the website shows available its in the showroom with a do not touch vehicle is already sold and prepped for delivery. 3 total out of all the dealerships in Memphis. One Ford dealership alone has over 10 times the amount of Mustangs and there are many Ford dealerships in Memphis. So tell me again that Camaros are on the lots and attainable........... Go ahead area code 38134 check the inventories yourself. Also notice that while V-6 mustangs are more plentiful, like I said earlier Base models are not your major movers V-6 or V-8, 2-1 with the v-6's 9-1 with the V-8's. If little Sarah just graduated high school with honors and her parents agreed to buy her a car and she went to both of the dealers in 38134 and saw no camaros available (and at a least a month wait for one) but plenty of mustangs across the street she could drive out with now which you think she would buy? You cannot judge a cars sales off a base model (especially when the difference between an LS and LT is only $800). Talk to your local dealer he can tell you better than autoblog/detroit news/motor trend etc what sells.

Hmm base model camaros show a significance but base model mustangs don't? What kind of logic is that? I'll say again and numbers will back me up. Base models on cars with 2 separate powertrain options are not the judging factor especially when you cannot get your hands on one for at least a month. When there are Camaro's on the lots in mass you will see base models jump garunteed.


ROFLMAO and you got this gem where again? I have yet to meet a woman who didn't like the way it looks (wife, sister, sisters in law, all female co workers, many of the gas station attendants to name a few). And of the 4 Camaro's I have seen on the road 2 were driven by women. This is classic example of trying to imply your personal taste into some type of factoid. You realize that of all the auto shows that the camaro from start to even now was in always rated as one of the highest number of visiters right?


The same guys you lamblasted for rating the chally over the mustang or when the subie bested the mustang etc etc. you now want to use as a base of rating. These guys are the automotive equavalent of the film critics who gave lousy Transformers 2 reviews and said it would bomb. "Driver's Car" review? Lol sure. Naa I won't have to remind you. Plus I'd look like a troll posting an "I told ya so thread". You post it up because you are not even close to being right on the Camaro.

If you make 1000 predictions/assertions your bound to be right on at least 333 of them. And we are not even going to get into the G8 in this thread its already going to get too long for most.

RedCandy5.0

Were i live the Camaros are very attainable here. Some lots have 18 that i have visted but they do sell very well. Here is a sample of one dealership near me. Several are like this.
http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/ncal.j...standard=false

On the road i have seen 2 '10 GT500's a 1GT and a V6. I have seen a dozen Camaro's. Camaro's are selling way better then '10 Mustangs here.

Slims00ls1z28

Some areas got more from the get go your one dealer has more camaros than every dealer within 100 miles of here. Here I saw 2 '10 stangs before I saw the first Camaro. Texas has the largest allocation that I am aware of.

MBK

it indicates there was pent up demand for the top model camaro, which you mentioned somewhere down your post. i don't know if you were around for the 05, but there were a lot of fully optioned GTs being sold, as well as V6s. same thing here, but without the v6 sales.

jsaylor

I didn't look to Motor trend or a dealership, I had no reason to for my purposes. I looked at GM's own numbers which indicate units produced to date and units sold to date. The difference between the two is just under 13,000 vehicles. At a Bob Lutz estimate of around 90k units a year or better that tells us there are far more than enough Camaros on lots for a one month supply even if we allow for a hefty amount of pre-orders within that. (which is being more than generous since thus far GM has been pretty terrible at producing pre-orders efficiently) What does that tell us? The extreme shortage Camaro enthusiasts want to imagine exists just doesn't. Is demand for units produced thus far good? Absolutely, but I previously worked within the dealership community and I have seen extreme shortages first hand...this isn't one.

You are completely missing the point fixating on beating Ford instead of on whether the Camaro is actually doing well in it own right. The current V6 Mustang is a budget special with a now hopelessly outdated engine that sells on value alone. Exactly what is outselling that right now going to prove? We know that the V6 Mustang is currently outdated, we know that Ford understands that, and we know that the powertrain of that car is going to be drastically updated for 2011. Put simply that cars fortunes have much more to do with the 2011MY at this point than with the lame duck model that currently exist.

The Camaro is all new and the V6 model you have right now is going to be the car that determines whether Camaro gets to stick around in the long term, because it isn't changing drastically anytime soon. So, I am looking at how that car is doing as a whole in several aspects. For an all new car with a very stout base engine I am not impressed, but I am also not surprised. Again, V6 Camaro problems are easy to spot; next to no appeal to women and too large and heavy to manage what it really should be able to with the powertrain it possesses

[QUOTESlims00ls1Z28]ROFLMAO and you got this gem where again? I have yet to meet a woman who didn't like the way it looks (wife, sister, sisters in law, all female co workers, many of the gas station attendants to name a few). And of the 4 Camaro's I have seen on the road 2 were driven by women. This is classic example of trying to imply your personal taste into some type of factoid. You realize that of all the auto shows that the camaro from start to even now was in always rated as one of the highest number of visiters right?[/QUOTE]

You can stop laughing, GM says that about 17% percent of Camaro buyers thus far have been women...that is an incredibly small percentage and certainly indicates that, whether the women you know like the car or not, they aren't actually buying it.

[QUOTESlims00ls1z28]The same guys you lamblasted for rating the chally over the mustang or when the subie bested the mustang etc etc. you now want to use as a base of rating. These guys are the automotive equavalent of the film critics who gave lousy Transformers 2 reviews and said it would bomb. "Driver's Car" review? Lol sure. Naa I won't have to remind you. Plus I'd look like a troll posting an "I told ya so thread". You post it up because you are not even close to being right on the Camaro.[/QUOTE]

I lambasted them then for the same thing I lambasted them for when Camaro won the initial comparos, they were blinded by the 'it's new' phenomenon and weren't really comparing the cars on an even keel. Now that the newness has worn off of both the Camaro and Chally remind me, how has every comparo in this segment hashed out over about the last three or four? When every review is saying exactly the same thing, it might tell you something.

If you make 1000 predictions/assertions your bound to be right on at least 333 of them. And we are not even going to get into the G8 in this thread its already going to get too long for most.[/quote]

No need to get into it, I was 100% right on both the G8 and GM bankruptcy with everything I said was going to occur coming to pass. The problem here is that you keep looking at this based on what you want to happen and I look at it from the perspective of what my business experience tells me is going to happen, and that is why I get it right and you don't.

MBK

i want to like the camaro, but as i see it GM only nailed two things: LS3 (of course), and to a lesser extent the styling, though the interior isn't doing it any favors. q: the brembos? a: brake weights; stopping distance equivalent to the track pack mustang. q: the irs? a: handling performance metrics equal if not worse than the track pack mustang. q: drive-ability? a: despite the camaro hype, the mustang has held its own without a new powertrain and suprised many with its handling, steering and overall road feel. in my opinion, brand name parts and technological buzz words are nothing without the right planning, engineering and execution. ford has been able to do more with less. my prediction is after the initial camaro sales wear down its going to be a heated fight between the two, especially given new ford powertrains in 2011.

stangfoeva

man, jsaylor is one of my favorite posters.

RedCandy5.0

Im with you! Love reading his posts because they actually make sense and you may learn something along the way.

Slims00ls1z28

Your main mistake. Obama doesn't know the full scope of what's going on in Iraq either, his generals do. And they know less about whats going on than their platoon sargents do. Alot can get misconstrued that way.

So Forbes and the others who list the Camaro as on the top 10 list of hardest vehicles to find are imagining it too? So 12 camaro's for sale within a 115 mile radius from me is a large supply? 13K units divided by about 2500 (low balling that to satiate you because many of GM's dealerships are multi brand lots of the roughly 5200 GM dealerships left {6300-1100}) dealerships equals about 5.2 per lot. And since there are a few as darkcandy pointed out, some have double that number. That leaves quite a bit empty handed does it not? I didn't even take into account the number of units still in shipping either that would be subtracted from the 13000 or those ordered. I don't know what it tells you but it tells anyone who thinks logically without kool-aid blinders on your representation is bloated at best. About this 90K a units or better a year. You either pulled this from a op ed who forgot to write the rest of the what went with that. They expect to be at 90K units a year when up to full production which has zero relevance here since the plants production is being ramped up to that number. It didn't start out hitting that number. It is not at that level yet now and was expected to hit that capability by the end of this year. I don't care if you claim to have been a dealership organizer this time if you don't see a shortage it's because you are ignoring it.


No you are completely dodging the point which is that YOU claimed that since the Base model V-6 is low in sales that the future of the camaro will struggle to reach Challenger levels. This is a baseless claim in its own right in that the base model V-6 has not now nor ever been the lithmus test on what has, is or will be sold. The combined sum of all V-6 models combined is base,premium (biggest seller) vert whatever. This crap about a lame duck outdated motor has nothing to do with it either. Dealers put on the lot what sell and while the number of mustang sales are down a bit the pattern has not changed. Enthusiasts know about the new motor changes and they make up a small portion of buyers and probably have little to no relation to its sales right now. John Q public who does not peruse the internet and know about the changes doesn't care about the motor changes anyway.

The V6 model as a whole yes which has sold over 11k units so far, is more than every challenger sold combined. And when supply finally does catch up to demand, which it absolutely has not, this number will grow and the SS numbers will drop. Good thing the marker does not care whether or not you are impressed because the model with the most constraints is selling well despite many having to order it.

Laughing again some more. See the above first of all. Secondly of those 17% who actually got their hands on it what did they actually buy then? I don't know but quite a few of them are on the forums ask them yourself. In say 3 months lets review these numbers so I can watch you backpeddle.

Of most of the reviews I have seen for laughs and giggles very few were negative about it. Only 1 actually comes to mind ("Driver Car"). The rest had little things like "slightly weighted steering" or other reservations to give the mustang the overall lead always the Camaro always placed 2nd of the 3 did it not? A "track packed equipped" Mustang GT hasn't a commanding dominance on the Camaro in the handling department. So trying to equate a Camaro as being sub-par to a "track pack equipped" GT means that a non track pack equipped GT is sub-par to a Camaro since it was bested by the camaro by about the same margins? A heavier car with IRS vs a lighter car with a suspension add on tuned from several years developement go pretty close head to head. So according to your logic then the Challenger must be a mini-van right? Again as always you take something with a marginal amount of truth inflate it with a massive amount of opinion with an equal amount of ego and try to pass the whole thing off as truth (a la Michael Moore).


Lol you have yet to get anything I have stepped into 100% right by a long shot. OK, OK you said GM was going to file bankruptcy, wow, especially closer to the end just about everyone did. What makes me laugh is you claim to know the whole enchilada of why to a T and given you are not on the board of directors, bond holders, dealerships management or anything tha has any real evidence of GM you were really nothing more than an armchair quarterback calling a 43-2 game at halftime, or someone who spends alot of time surfing the web and magazines and make assumptions based on such. Same thing with the G8 want a cookie? In reality the problem here is that you keep looking at this based on what YOU want to happen and I look at the whole picture here. That is why you think you get it right when in reality you really don't. A smoking gun you are very far from sir, a Michael Moore you are very similar too. G-day to ya gov'ner.

Slims00ls1z28

Likewise. J and I have disagreed here many times.

The same formula works wonders for lotus etc.


I like him too believe it or not sometimes though I think his brand loyalty gets him fired up.

nitecrawler27

its not a surprise and i dont think ford is going to worry about this. They prob knew that the new camaros were going to sell, specially since they were out of production for a while and im pretty sure they had a good amount of people waiting for the new camaros to come out. We all know that the mustang will be around for longer then the camaro and the challenger so no need to worry.

jsaylor

Hard to find compared to what? Again, you miss the point. Demand for everything is down, so generating any amount of meaningful demand is going to easily put you top ten if not top five on such a list. On that measure right now the Camaro is doing better than the average car, I never said otherwise, I did question if it will last or if the Camaro can even sustain moderate demand long term. Right now we all know that Chevy is still exhausting pent up enthusiast demand for the Camaro, and since V6 sales make it appear exceedingly unlikely that Camaro will ever hit the production number GM needs to keep the car viable long term.

You keep getting tripped up on things that don't really matter, much like GM. If Chevy has so many dealerships that a months supply of cars wont adequately supply them all then that is a huge problem GM needs to address which is completely independent of the Camaro issue. You can't somehow argue on that basis that GM doesn't have enough cars, logic like that led GM into bankruptcy in the first place.

More attempts to take shots at me? I have stated several different times, and starting long ago, that I worked for a dealership prior to which I worked within the tier 1 automotive industry. As for Camaro demand, this is not a shortage and both you and your fellow bowtie enthusiasts are letting your enthusiasm get the better of you. As for the 90k unit number, Bob Lutz said some time ago that 90k units per year would be a break even point for Camaro production, which on its face means no 90k cars per year no profit for GM. Was that gospel? Lutz does talk a lot, sometimes out of turn, but it is all we have to go on.

I never said that the base V6 model was the Litmus test for V6 sales overall. I said that V6 sales are a litmus test for the same and inferred that, IMO, the current low volume of the base V6 indicates that the V6 model as a whole may not be swaying those who would otherwise look at a rival make. Why? Since sales are so lopsided I inferred that V6 demand in general may be getting bolstered somewhat by some of the pent up SS intenders who simply cannot afford the pricier V8 model. As such my problem, as it always was, is with V6 sales in general which are already insufficient, and which base poor LS model sales indicate may get worse depending upon who is actually buying those pricier 1LT and 2LT models Either way V6 sales are already insufficient and appear unlikely to get any better for various reasons.

Again, you keep inferring things I never said. I never said that Joe consumer was waiting for the new Mustang V6 engine, I argued that the current V6 Mustang is a place holder, budget special which simply isn't going to sell on much of anything but price...which is absolutely correct....and that as such the V6 model Mustang has virtually nothing to do with the sales of any current competitor outside of those which are likewise very heavily discounted.....of which there aren't any because they are all new. I never indicated that Joe consumer was waiting for the 3.7L Mustang, I did indicate that the 3.7L V6 would change the V6 Mustangs appeal to everyone including Joe consumer and as such that model means more to the next three or four years of Mustang sales than does the existing lame duck model. As for the paradigm of V6 versus V8 coupe sales not changing, I never said that it did change as successful models hit about a 60/40 split long term. I don't expect that Mustang is quite on that number right now because the V6 model currently sold is terrible. I also don't suspect the Camaro will ever quite hit that slit because the V6 model lacks appeal in the market, a reality which the market will prove for me soon enough.

Keep convincing yourself that demand somehow is just ridiculously outstripping demand, I'll tell you again that you are only setting yourself up for disappointment.

Backpeddle on what? In 3 months GM will still be producing SS orders and V6 sales will still be where they are now or a bit lower, but overall sales numbers wont have changed very much. Right now I'm thinking the bottom falls out sometime around March, Camaro might even make it through April or May before it really takes a hit, but the hit is coming and it will begin sometime in that basic time frame at the latest.

The son of the famed Mark Donahue referred to the Camaro as a 'pig' in the Automobile magazine article with both test drivers complaining that the car suffered from extreme understeer. Car and Driver wasn't overly kind to say the least. The point is that reviews keep getting worse, wonder why that is?

More personal shots? I called both the G8 debacle and the pending GM bankruptcy when the faithful were still convinced that both just needed more time. I also gave a rundown on why Ford wouldn't follow the same path, and I was right on all counts.

jsaylor

Thanks guys, always nice to feel the love.

Slims00ls1z28

Hard to find compared to the top 12 selling vehicles on the market, which it happens to be higher than just top 5 its in second place, behind an Audi and tied with a Toyota. That proves high demand reguardless of why, those reasons are understood by all and I've not denied it. It and what I posted earlier (numbers on lots) prooves that there is not much if any selection on the lots and will directly affect the sales of lesser models (V6) because your average non enthusist is not keen on ordering nor do they just want to settle for whats on the lot. This plus many other reasons are why V-6 sales are where they are at and until the market evens out and there are several to choose from on the lots of all models (such as 34 mustangs on the lot, which is the only point to be taken in this) you cannot accurately gauge what future sales will be at this time. Will it completely dominate the mustang, I doubt it nor have I ever said anything counter ( it will not equal the 180,000 Mustangs sold in 2005). That was my original point to begin with and still holds now.


No you keep inferring strenghtening points to my original topics as another topic in this. Most of what I have posted is to strenghten the main point I conveyed: Current V-6 sales cannot be judged as what the Camaro will sell in the future due to the lack of what is on the lots. It has no more dealerships than Ford, so the number of lots is not the issue. Nor does it show a problem in whether or not something is adequately supplied. I said before, the production from day one was to be ramped up such as it has been. It's not a "problem GM needs to address", its a problem risen from a completely new plant pushing a completely new product that has had to start from the gate literally over 10000 units behind. Had they been able to use the original St. Therese plant the numbers produced might have been higher (admitted speculation). This also has nothing to do with the bankruptcy issues. (this is a separate topic than my main but its only a counter point to this separate one you just raised)


Don't play innocent here. You dish them out I dish them back. You get condescending, demeaning, or make straight opinionated derrogatory remarks doing the same, veiled as a fact, and I will dish them back at you. Much like the ones you stated in this post before you removed them ie: the fanboi brain cells, and remember what mama always said type remark, trying to denegrate my debate skills etc, (ya I saw them and still have them pulled up on my phone when I originally saw them). I am a prison guard (not actually related to the topic) who deals with 1500 people who do the same thing day in and day out so I can spot it quick and will react to it accordingly. Check the ego at the door and I assure you I will do the same as we have in a few other debates. I don't like pissing contests, I do enjoy debates and I can and do hold my own.

Secondly I'm am not now, nor have ever claimed an outright shortage even though many dealerships do not have a Camaro inventory. Merely pointing out a strengthening point to prove that there is not an adequate supply to have a selection that would entice non enthusist buyers, who do not wish to order and might want a particular color for instance. Since their combo might not be on a lot they are either going to wait for a selection or go elsewhere. This is directly related to the point of why I say you cannot lithmus test todays numbers and infer a future poor sales performance that will be struggling to achieve the numbers of the Challenger, which is limited by Chrysler to 2500 a month anyway. With over 11K V-6's sold as of late this in no way shows that the challenger is a sales rival let alone one that might trump sales. Ponycar rival, yes sales rival, no. The 90K units topic again is nothing related to the original topic. Is it true? I don't know. I don't work for GM. I don't know their profit margin numbers. You brought this up in a segment dealing with units produced not I.



You inferred it by chosing to concentrate on the number of base V-6's at under 1000 you never posted that 11K V-6's were sold and used it to bolster your argument. Your words not mine. If you wanted to seriously try to convey dismal V-6 sales you could have easily mentioned the 99,000 V-6 mustangs sold in 2005 compared to the 11K Camaros sold to date which probably won't come close to those of the mustang in 2005. You chose to focus on the base model being under 1000, and even placed emphasis on that number enclosing it in a "wait for it" .... and even a "believe it" as if it was a major indicator and dismal. You posted it in your point which could be inferred that V-6 sales were horrendous based on such, which is why I even brought up the base sales and all its related topics in the first place.


Given I never said anything originally about engine upgrades of the upcomming mustangs Where did it come from? This is one of those instances where you brought it up to try to counter a point which I made which has nothing to do with current mustang sales being good bad or down because of holding out for the engines. This has nothing to do with my original topics of discussion hence whay I said as such. The point was to prove that base model sales are not the lithmus test which you now agree with so further discussion on this is moot. To comment on that last sentence in your paragraph, I disagree to a degree that a 300 HP V-6 makes a great selling point reguardless of how it will actually compare to today's market on paper (performance wise). This combined with an already stated point on todays numbers do not actually reflect accuracy of future performance and I say the market will prove me correct on that such as I have been saying.


Nope I think I covered this up top. The Camaro is not completely unobtainable, it is however next to impossible (not impossible mind you) to go to a lot and have a chance of getting the exact car with the color/powertrain/options you want before hand if your not into ordering or waiting. You have to deal with the few on the lot. If I wanted a white Camaro I'm screwed for now anyway because they haven't even started producing the full palette of colors yet which might also be a factor in what is currently selling. You were the one who delved into the notion that there was a "made up shortage" or that there are plenty on the lots when in actuallity there are "some" not "plenty"


The numbers now will definately recede. But again this "hit" is not going to be as severe as you think if you are basing it on current V-6 sales or even gender percentage.



TheTruthaboutcars dude referred to the Mustangs interior as unrefined covered up by good materials, not a great handler itself (I think it was a non track pack mustang though), a real handful to drive fast, a jack of all trades and a master of none, and that the SHO is not a real SHO, it is an engine in search of a chassis, with just a "decent" interior, with brakes that could be upgraded with bicycle brakes. Does that make it so? The Camaro handles great for an almost 4K lb car. Especially when it can equal that of a lighter car (non track pack equipped mustang). I dont care about opinions from anyone no matter the pedigree, I care about what numbers they put down which are less subjective to scrutiny or variance. The numbers from any evaluation from any one done to date do not put the camaro in "sub-par" category what so ever. Sub-par for an Elise or Atom maybe, in the ponycar segment not hardly.


I'll call a truce on them if you do the same and check the "pwnage" mentality at the door, agreed? As I see it the biggest rundown on why Ford didn't is the fact that A, it sold off many brands which GM didn't and GM even had more and that B, since it lowered operating costs the loan it took out on mortgaging one of its plants supplied it with the needed cash to carry it through until the red caught up with the black. If we have any disagreements there open up another thread and I'll gladly participate as far as the G8 is concerned the only thing I can remember about getting into any kind of debate with you might been when you said the cost of zeta (in being shipped from overseas to here) being it's major problem. The camaro does not face that problem given the Camaro's only slightly higher price compared to the Mustang including the IRS, Brembos etc. I know I never stated anything such as what you did before that it would alter its segment at all. You must have me confused with someone else here or elsewhere. The G8's problem IMO was price. 30K for a V-6? 42+ for a Gxp? Yep I looked the other way on it too, and I'm a major fan. After my new Camaro is paid off I will grab a used one in a heartbeat tho just like I did my GTO. If that was the point you conveyed then yes I'll agree, much else afterward, I won't. They guy from top gear said it best and I can't stand him. M5ish car at GM price (well upper end GM price that is). A **** fine automobile by many.

jsaylor

Like I said, high demand compared to what? Almost nothing is in high demand right now, that the Camaro is on that list doesn't mean what it might have back before the economy tanked.

I disagree, and I'll restate why again. At the very least there exists a one month supply of Camaros on lots according to GM's own numbers. And, if you conduct a search on GM's own website V6 Camaros, while not falling out of trees, are not impossible to find. SS models are more plentiful, but Camaro in general isn't especially difficult to find and V6 models are easily had if you want one. For example, when I checked last week there were an easy twenty or so V6 Camaro models between the Knoxville and Lexington areas. Will that create a situation where everybody who wants a V6 Camaro might not be getting one? Of course. Is that a severe enough shortage to lead me to believe that sales will literally double once dealership supply increases? Not even close, and that is my problem. Demand is very good but it is not severely outstripping supply in the manner that some want to believe, not given what I saw during my time in the business. If the shortage was as severe as some like to think you would be hard pressed to fnd a V6 Camaro on a lot.

Particulars that convince me I am right? A low take rate by women doesn't bode well. I was wrong about the 17% take rate by women, but the 23.4% take rate that I could verify for sales through the end of August isn't significantly better since it misses the 30% minimum target GM set for Camaro sales to women by nearly a third, and this while demand is as good as it will ever get. (link to the 30% target set before production began)

http://caradvice.askpatty.com/ask_pa...et-camaro.html

If I'm right here, and I am, the only way Camaro is going to succeed is if SS sales far outstrip V6 model sales, something no successful car in this segment has managed for three decades. I have yet to see a reason compelling enough to lead me to expect Camaro can manage a 90k unit per year average, or anything of the sort, in the long term with slow V6 model demand

Save it for the cons. I'm not playing anything and honestly, it really doesn't matter to me whether you saw what I posted before I removed it or not because, to be perfectly honest, I didn't remove them for you. In this thread you took the initiative to travel down the road of thinly-veiled insults. I've followed you down that path before, but after some thought I have no intention of following you down that path this time, certainly not over a car. My character means more to me than that, even on the internet, and that is why I removed those comments from my post. Put more simply, if I intended to call you out for what you said it would have been a Hell of a lot more than the two simple sentences in that last post.

As for your job, I recall that you mentioned your profession before but had long forgotten what you do. I have several friends who work in the federal prison system in every capacity, so I don't know what you think your instincts are telling you but I will tell you what I have seen in some of them. Often, particularly among those who enter young, you sadly end up with a situation where it becomes increasingly difficult to tell the inmates from the guard without that uniform. No they aren't criminals, but the suspicion and distrust creeps into every area of their life all too often. The notion that everybody is out to get what they can...inside and outside...however they can creeps in, their attitude toward everybody gets worse, and before you know it half of them are bald and have as many tats as the prisoners do.

I don't know you and I don't know how well you are doing holding your own here. I do know that I recognize the instant distrust and assumptions you learn to make because, inside, they are 99% accurate. It's a tough job, and I feel sorry for those who go over the edge and don't return, but in the posts with me you can leave the whole spiel about what your instincts tell you at the door....I'm not one of your cons and despite the your preconceived notions tell you you didn't catching me in anything other than trying not to let a conversation needlessly degrade to bolster my argument or beat my chest. Put more simply my conscience, and I like to think on a larger scale my character, led me to regret taking the path of cheap shots. I would like to think yours would do the same.

Just some food for thought and a friendly hint that I don't take well to being treated the way you would treat a con.

I think you are a bit too hung up on my Challenger comment here. I do suspect the point will come where Camaro will have a tough time seriously besting Challenger sales numbers without major rebates as I indicated before, that said I do think that much of a decline will take some time. That said, if GM goes all out, low rent, bargain basement on the Camaro I don't believe that eventuality will occur...but they would lose either way so it would be a hollow victory. However, as stated above I don't think Camaro will hit that point in the near term and I suspect that the first signs of trouble may pop up around March, give or take a month or two, with demand slowly notching downward and rebates ratcheting up.

I think the communication barrier here stems from the fact that you don't realize just how much of a disaster I think those super low LS numbers actually are. IMO well optioned LT1 and every LT2 sales are equally if not more likely to be a SS intender without the money to score one than the legit V6 buyers who GM needs to make this car work. I am convinced that GM needs to capture buyers, particularly young men, looking for cars in the 20-22k range who might otherwise buy a high end Civic coupe including the base Si model or even a C segment four door since the truth is very little is available in this range right now. The utter lack of LS sales convinces me that the Camaro doesn't appeal to that segment.

Let me be perfectly clear here on my stance on this issue since I phrased it poorly last post. Overall V6 model sales absolutely are a litmus test for whether a car as whole can survive long term I this segment, they have been for thirty years and there is no reason to expect that to change now. This has long been my position and will remain so until the market proves that this is no longer the case. The only possible exception I see to this would be a very low volume model which the Camaro obviously is not intended to be. Low LS model sales are problematic in their own right for reasons stated above.

I disagree

Again, I disagree. Mustang has taken some hits in the comparos, and rightly so in some areas, but the trend that journalists are becoming increasingly less enamored with Camaro is hard to miss. The truce is fine with me, and reality is ultimately going to settle this debate either way.

Slims00ls1z28

Specifically here http://www.forbes.com/2009/08/31/pop...uto-sales.html. Those are selling well given the recent boost in cash for clunkers. Living averages of 16-18 days on the lots. The Focus and the Escape are still selling well too even though cash for clunkers is gone. I think Maxim Magazine last month had a top 10 list which they listed 10 others that dealers are "having trouble keeping on the lots" (camaro was in the top there too). Just because the market is down as a whole does not mean there aren't cars selling at good clips. Theres a million (not literally of course) Escapes on the road, one in my driveway at that.


Difference of opinion again. While I don't expect a doubling of the sales nor ever said they would I absolutely expect them to rise while the SS's slope off. Nothing is severly outstripped, merely not going to show accurate numbers at this time of true demand. I'm sure they will rise signifigantly as soon as the full palette is available, and demand normalizes. Reguardless I claim you cannot assess these numbers based on many variables an accurate non enthusiast/pre order/constraint/those holding for the vert and even fewer holding for a rumored Z28 (still only internet confirmed) inspired set of figures that don't even give an indication on how each month fared in the breakdown. In say 6 months review these again and if your prediction hold true i'll conceed. In the meantime I'll hold my opinion while you hold yours much as we did with the 5.0 vs LS3 debate and we shall see who prevails in time And I'll give you accolades if warranted.

Precisely why my last post I toned down mine. In all fairness though you hash out less personal insults than comments that you know would get someone who thinks differently involved ie: the raid comment etc. Not that it's an excuse mind you just saying. You are quite opinonated , not that I am equating that as a bad thing per se. The equavalent would be me saying the 4.6 mod motor is as weak as a 90 year grandma compared to an LS1 (NOT THAT I BELIEVE THAT FOR ANYONE ELSE READY TO POUNCE IT'S AN EXAMPLE ONLY).

Guard with the feds so given you are from kentucky you probably know those who work at the one in eastern KY I'm familiar with it thought about transferring once. Started at 19 (with the state), been doin it ever since and I'm 32 now. Got my tattoos (only 3 none visible in pants and a shirt) while in the Marines (reserve) before I started this job. I'm quite sure I resemble an inmate in no shape form or fashion, either through demeanor or actions. Not thinning, bald balding or going gray either. I'm fine otherwise bro no worries.

I was going to actually remove the lines I typed about that because after reviewing my post I notice I parted the first shot of personal sarcasm here. But I figgured to wait until you post so you can actually see the acknowledgement rather than delete it like it never happened. My apologies. That phrase, "in reality" irks me to no avail especially attached to something I see as motivated by opinion instead of stone cold fact or said by those who "think" they are smart (not saying you fit the second criteria BTW). I've just seen you use it with the other guy who used to debate with you alot and I'm used to you doing it even in our debates at times and now that I think about it it is usually the first thing I always spin back to you with heavy sarcasm is it not? Reguardless I'll try henceforth to refrain from it. Alright enough sissy talk


To be perfectly honest I probably wouldn't have opened my mouth had it not been for that comment so I will gyrate towards it every time. I see it inconceivable given the fact that The camaro has sold more V-6's in 5 months than the Challenger has told total since it debuted. I just cannot understand how your speculation would lead you to that conclusion. Another we shall see shortly.



The LS's biggest turn off is that for just 800$ you can upgrade to the 1LT (I've never sold a car but I bet I can sell that package). It's like what 4-5 dollars a month depending on interest rate 3 at face value. A large portion why I feel that number is inconsequential doubled with the fact that even bargain basement people usually add some options and the whole package cost no more than a couple of options. Me personally I hate the wheels and would gladly spend that just to get the better wheels. I also tend to think rhumbs point plays a part here and agree with him.

The rest again we shall find out when more accurate numbers arrive.



Fair enough.

Knight

WOW that was a long winded debate.