jsaylor

The same folks who told us that the G8 was a wildly competitive car that would change the full size paradigm in the American market only to end up befuddled when nothing of the sort occurred are now taking the fruit of pent up demand and parlaying that into the Camaro somehow being a groundbreaking car when it is nothing of the sort. And, in another year or less, when demand for the Camaro has subsided, we are going to find these same folks gasping in awe at how such a brilliant car could have fallen so far so quickly.

After the initial surge of demand subsides the Camaro will prove a failure for very simple reasons, among those reasons are a near total lack of appeal to women and a somewhat misguided base model offering. This car only really makes sense as a V8 powered model sold almost exclusively to men, and volume production coupes which fit that description haven't proven successful in this market for over thirty years. The size of the car, which is too large in general, is particularly problematic for the base model severely blunting what would otherwise be an interesting entry level performance coupe by way of excess mass.

This car is a long way from **** fine, and in short order the market will demonstrate that in spades. I eagerly await the masses waxing philosophically on how the market could have so utterly rejected such an amazing machine, particularly when the initial reception was so encouraging. Within four years Mustang's only direct competition will be a Hyundai and, possibly, a Subaru/Toyota.

Knight

I feel the mustang is too expensive now. Like someone said before the options are so packed together you have to order more then you want. So you are either priced out of being able to afford one or end up buying one that doesn't have all that you want.

The mustang needs two things to match the camaro in bang for buck. more powerful engine and IRS. Would i buy a camaro over the Mustang, no, but i can see where then general public is coming from and they don't look at things like track numbers and see the mustang does really well for what it has.

Blainestang

Yawn.

The Camaros are selling because you couldn't buy one for 8 years. Can you imagine the backlog of sales if the Mustang went on an 8 year hiatus? Seriously... think about it. We'd all be tripping all ourselves to pick up the 2018 Mustang if production stopped today.

Secondly, who is going to buy a 2010 now that we know the V6 and GT are BOTH going to get ~100hp bumps for 2011? At this point, the only reasons I can see someone buying one are:

a) They don't do any research and don't KNOW that the Mustang is getting upgraded engines (even if you don't care for the power, resale value on '10s is going to take a hit because of the power differential)

b) Their current car just exploded and they can't feasibly wait for the 2011's.

c) Some combination of the above


Color me unconcerned until the 2011 is readily available and the Camaro is STILL leading. I couldn't possibly be LESS worried about that happening, though. The Camaro will be inferior in virtually EVERY way at that point, and all the Mustang holdouts will be laying down the cash like the Camaro fanboys are doing now.

jsaylor

Now this I agree with completely...one of the current Mustangs two most detrimental problems IMHO.

The only issue here I disagree with is IRS. Mustang needs superior engines, which we all know are coming for 2011, and a more reasonable options and pricing structure.

Blainestang

That's one thing I loved about purchasing our MINI.

Every SINGLE option is available individually. Period.

However, they ALSO have packages that bundle certain items together that ends up being notably cheaper than buying all the included options individually.

I realize there are costs involved in making that kind of customization possible, etc... I'm merely saying that it was nice to be able to have so much control over the options selected.

Eights

Yep! I TOLD everyone that Dearborn's stylists screwed the pooch on the 2010 update--go back and read my sage postings from late last year/early this year and you'll see how the stylists screwed the package up sufficiently to give all the "on the fence" customers ample reason to go Camaro, go Challenger, or at the very least go something other than the 2010 Mustang. I'm too lazy to list the styling screw-ups again--I hope they weren't lost in the snafu a month or so ago.

Otherwise, jsaylor, knight, and blainestang have hit the nail square on the head.

Greg "Eights" Ates

Zastava_101

I agree.

Back in 2000 when I bought my V6, brand new Mustang was under $16,000. Now it's almost $23,000. Even the base GT is over $28,000 now. That's way too much. Just because Challenger and Camaro went overboard doesn't mean Mustang needs to do the same thing.

Evil_Capri

Base MSRP is 20,995, 23,995 for "Premium" V6 . . .

Zastava_101

That's still $5,000 increase in price over period of 10 years. I feel that's too much.

Evil_Capri

Huh . . . $500 increase per year on a superior car with much improved quality and safety . . . . seems reasonable to me.

RedCandy5.0

If you have someone cross shopping the 2 cars and your not a die hard Ford or Chevy person how can the Mustang compare in the eyes of the average buyer? Your going to spend the same amount of money for either car but when they see they are getting a car with more hp, 6 spd, irs and better mpg how is the Mustang supposed to compete for the same price point? The only upside is the interior for the Mustang. Like i said the '10 is basically a lame duck sitting between highly discounted 09's and the new '11 power trains. If the new power trains do not send sales upward with the Ford faithful then you know the new design was a bust. Plus i think most are bored with the looks after 6yrs as the average person might not even be able to tell the difference between an '09 and a '10 unless it is pointed out to them.

Zastava_101

Base Mustang GT is about $3,000 cheaper than base Camaro SS.

Blainestang

Even assuming we're ignoring the aesthetic part of the equation, there are plenty of places where the Mustang is competitive or superior. For instance, despite the lack of IRS, the Mustang typically puts up better handling numbers than both the Camaro and Challenger. In fact, the Mustang is essentially equal or superior to the others in almost every performance category, excluding straight-line acceleration.

Moving onto slightly more subjective items, the Mustang has fairly often been picked as the best OVERALL vehicle by the car mags because it's comparable in most performance categories AND it's the easiest to live with on a daily basis. I felt like the Mustang's belt-line and hood were rather high (compared to my '00 and '93 Mustangs), but the Camaro and Challenger are much worse. They're both several hundred pounds heavier, they're typically unresponsive at low speeds, etc.

Sure, if you only look at:

- Price
- HP
- Transmission
- IRS/Solid
- 1/4-mile

... then it's a little lopsided. However, as we know from the Episode of the Simpsons where Homer designs a car, just because a car has a great spec sheet filled with everything someone could ever want, doesn't mean the sum of those parts is a great car.

The Mustang may not have the best spec sheet, but many who have driven all three have agreed that the Mustang is the best overall vehicle. The individual parts may not be top-of-the-class, but Ford knows how to put them together in a package that is enjoyable to drive every day and that performs better than a spec-sheet race may indicate.

jsaylor

I'm with Blainstang here, my problem isn't so much the entry level pricing for the car as it is with what I have to pay just to get the options that I want. Of course, this is all due to the more 'efficient' packaging path Ford is traveling requires me to purchase so many other items I don't want.

I posted an example not long ago that showed that I would have to pay 2k more for the options I want on a Mustang now than I would have only a couple of years ago because I would be forced to buy them in bundles. Heck, I would be happy to pay an 'unlock' fee similar to what Volvo charges if it would allow me to order the options I want a' la carte since I would still save around 1600 U.S. compared to what I would have to pay now just to get things I don't care about.

I genuinely believe that this approach has partially killed the Mustang's value message. For example, prior to the Rapidspec philosophy I saw several Deluxe model Mustang with leather/shaker 500 added. My guess is that this was an appealing package to folks who care about leather but aren't enamored with the other options the Premium package tacks on. Best of all, that options possibility provided a lower price point if the question was 'what is the cheapest Mustang GT I can get with a leather interior?'

If that option possibility lived on for the 2010 model the cheapest Mustang with leather interior would be about 2k less than a base SS2, which is the cheapest Camaro you can buy with leather. The same would still be true if you could pay the 350 bills or so Volvo asks for an a' la carte unlock features, although the difference would be a bit slimmer at just over 1600 dollars....still meaningful thought. However, since Ford moved to the one spec fits all Rapidspec philosophy there is virtually no price difference between the least expensvie leather equipped Mustang and a base 2SS.

RedCandy5.0

Thats with '10 pricing. Lets hope in '11 when the playing field will be = that there will not be another price increase pushing the Mustang price with options even higher.

Slims00ls1z28

Nice never saw those before. With well over 11k V6 units sold (not less than 1000 like you stated earlier) selling more than all challengers combined I think the Camaro's numbers are doing much better than what you let on to be in your post. Less than 1000 "base" models means squat. Show me the numbers on the base mustang and chally if you can now. Sales of lesser aka V-6 models takes into account all V-6 models not just base. I can bet you the mustang sold much more premium V-6's than base v-6's. Us going back and forth won't change either of our minds so I'll pull a draw here and just say wait and see, V-6 models are not on the lots in masse and those shoppers will not deal with ordering so they will rise whe it comes off this list http://www.forbes.com/2009/08/31/pop...uto-sales.html . I stand behind what I said that the chally won't come close to camaro numbers not the other way around. I don't doubt that the mustang shall gain back the lead later on but from what I see the Camaro is doing quite well and will be able to maintain its market share. In the meantime I'll wait and see if the Z28 actually does come out before I get mine. It's either Z or vert for me (hopefully I can get both).

I do find your post #21 very funny and not worth reposting, fortunately the real world views the Camaro in much better light than you do. The sales now are doing great (better than you itterated/predicted in the first Camaro outsold Mustang thread was posted up) and holding for now. Mustang's only competitor a hyundai/subaru/toyota when its outsold hardily for 4 months straight? OooooK. I think sometimes your disdain for anything GM clouds your judgement.

rhumb

Interesting that the most expensive Camaro model, the 2SS, is by far the biggest selling model at 63% of the 5 available models. Seems to indicate that the Camaro is not at all overpriced and perhaps Ford ought to review the penny pincher approach (5 speed vs 6 speed, IRS vs lively axle, Brembos vs ho-hum brakes, etc.) as low cost does not necessarily mean high value and perhaps the Mustang is the one priced too high given its more pedestrian spec sheet, looking at that alone. Of course, this says nothing about how well all these premium bits work and Ford has done a good job at refining what they've got over the years. The Chevy bits, however, do seem to work more than well enough even on its first year out of the gate.

Of course, next year brings on a load of cam/valve-laden new motors, extra gears in the trannys and presumably brakes that'll last beyond a panic stop or two. If Ford can restrain themselves on the pricing, which hopefully the humbling experience of being outsold by the Camaro for four months on now will do, they can regain the sales lead.

Undoubtedly, some of the Camaro's sales successes can be written off to pent up demand, but I wouldn't get too blithe with that rationale or underestimate the competition. Just as Ford has (belatedly) refined the S197, so too can Chevy with the Camaro. Look at the level of improvements Pontiac did between the '05 and '06 GTO: new motor, new exhaust, new rear bumper, new hood, new wheels, new brakes and a number of smaller detail refinements. Not to argue the GTO's merits or lack thereof, but rather, this indicates GM's willingness to actively improve their models from year to year. I wouldn't expect Chevy to sit on its hands while Ford rolls out the 3.7, 5.0 and all the other supposed '11 upgrades.

jsaylor

Hold on a minute there, I referred to the most basic V6 model specifically here and that would be the 1LS. That car had moved about 800 units as of the end of September.

I don't know what basic Mustang V6 numbers are and, to be honest, I don't really think they apply here yet. With the 300+hp V6 the Camaro is attempting to move into a segment that nobody has entered with a ponycar prior to now. That is why base 1LS numbers interest me as much as they do, potentially this car and the upcoming 3.7L Mustang have the ability to sway purchasers from low 20k cars like the base Civic Si, loaded run of the mill Civic coupes, MS3, VW GTi, etc. Personally, I believe that a lot of the more expensive V6 models are being sold to people who would have been interested in a Camaro anyway but who can't afford a SS or simply don't feel a need for the extra power. Put more simply, of the V6 models I believe the 1LS and base 1LT models to be the best candidates for bringing new customers to Chevy so 1LS numbers hold a certain significance.

That said I expect the car to fail here. The motor is plenty powerful, but I think the perception is that the Camaro is a whole lot of car even for a 300hp V6 and I would argue that reality has some say here too as a Mustang with that same engine and six forward gears would run easy high 13's. For some that difference wont matter, but Camaro styling is going to repel women like Raid repels bugs so the high performance crowd, particularly the young enthusiasts, matter here. The problem is that, IMO, Camaro is just too large and heavy to play to that crowd at this power rating.

Camaro has been literally blasted for sub par dynamics in several comparos now, and the more the new wears off the car the less starry eyed the journalists have become with the car. As for my predictions about Camaro sales, the only surprise for me thus far is the fact that GM has actually been smart enough to realize that they need to pace themselves and not blow the pent up demand in one quick slash. You can remind me how wrong I was in six to eight months, but I was right about GM and their then pending bankruptcy, I was right about the Pontiac G8, and I'm right about the new Camaro.

tacbear

All they have to do is drive them back to back!

MARZ

Yep, exactly what he said.