Ford Denies warranty because of aftermarket parts
4/15/06, 09:47 PM
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I own a 2005 Mustang GT, I have several Modifications to the engine mostly cosmetic, Steel Braided hose, Plenum cover Ect. The three major engine mods I have is a K&N Cold Air Intake, Granatelli Motor Sports 62 mm Billet Throttle Body and Steeda Underdrive Pulleys.
The Problem Started last week when I hit a large puddle in a rain storm and the engine got real wet, a few hours later I got a Check Engine Light, I used my SCT II to view the DTC Code. It Showed a DTC P0340 Camshaft Position Sensor "A" Circuit" I reset the codes and the CEL came back the next day. So I dropped my car off at a Ford Dealer. They called me later and said that the problem is the generator, but they could not replace it under warranty because of the aftermarket underdrive pulleys, and he said that they may have damaged the generator.
I found a TSB in a Mustang forum - TSB 06-02-09 DTC P0340/P0344/P0345/P0349 - 4.6L 3V AND 5.4L 3V
Some 2005-2006 Mustang GT vehicles, equipped with 4.6L 3V engine, may exhibit a diagnostic trouble code (DTC) P0340 and/or P0344. This may be due to a malfunctioning diode or open phase connection in the generator.
I also Contacted Steeda Performance Parts in Pompano Beach, FL they stated that the underdrive pulleys only replace the Harmonic Balancer and Water pump pulleys, they do not touch the generator. They also stated to me that these pulleys were designed by ford engineers and are installed on some performance mustangs sold on some ford dealer’s lots including Saleen, SVT and Roush mustangs. So Ford can not deny warranty coverage of the alternator because of the Steeda pulleys.
They told me to go to SEMA.ORG website and Read the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, and that the dealer must prove that the aftermarket parts caused or contributed to the failure. I pointed this out to the dealer and they got very defensive and told me to take the car to my mechanic, put the stock pulleys on then if the car gets a code, they will fix it under warranty. Well this was going to cost me more time from work and cost to have the pulleys swapped out twice. I did not see anywhere in the law where the Burdon of proof falls on my shoulders to help him prove his case. He now is saying that Ford Corporate denied warranty on the generator and he will not replace it. I again pointed out that there are cars in his lot that have the same aftermarket products installed and they warranty them, his comment, theirs were installed by a certified Ford mechanics. (his comment here makes no sense). And How about the “Pattern of failure” the TSB, it does not say “if you have aftermarket parts installed you get this error”.
Even If I reinstall the stock Pulleys I am tagged in their computer as a problem, no ford dealer will help me, I asked Several in the area and they all say the same thing, WARRANTY VOID PERIOD. "we do not fix modded cars"
It's almost like the dealers want a peice of the aftermarket pie, I mean look at my Ford dealers lot, there are 06 mustangs with shaker hood scoops, the service adv. told me that the UDP cause the alternator to run outside it's designed specs. did I here the him right, does'nt modifying the stock intake filter box with a Ramair scoop cause it to run outside it's intended specs ???
These guys are trying to corner the market by bashing the competition and scaring the consumer.
The Problem Started last week when I hit a large puddle in a rain storm and the engine got real wet, a few hours later I got a Check Engine Light, I used my SCT II to view the DTC Code. It Showed a DTC P0340 Camshaft Position Sensor "A" Circuit" I reset the codes and the CEL came back the next day. So I dropped my car off at a Ford Dealer. They called me later and said that the problem is the generator, but they could not replace it under warranty because of the aftermarket underdrive pulleys, and he said that they may have damaged the generator.
I found a TSB in a Mustang forum - TSB 06-02-09 DTC P0340/P0344/P0345/P0349 - 4.6L 3V AND 5.4L 3V
Some 2005-2006 Mustang GT vehicles, equipped with 4.6L 3V engine, may exhibit a diagnostic trouble code (DTC) P0340 and/or P0344. This may be due to a malfunctioning diode or open phase connection in the generator.
I also Contacted Steeda Performance Parts in Pompano Beach, FL they stated that the underdrive pulleys only replace the Harmonic Balancer and Water pump pulleys, they do not touch the generator. They also stated to me that these pulleys were designed by ford engineers and are installed on some performance mustangs sold on some ford dealer’s lots including Saleen, SVT and Roush mustangs. So Ford can not deny warranty coverage of the alternator because of the Steeda pulleys.
They told me to go to SEMA.ORG website and Read the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, and that the dealer must prove that the aftermarket parts caused or contributed to the failure. I pointed this out to the dealer and they got very defensive and told me to take the car to my mechanic, put the stock pulleys on then if the car gets a code, they will fix it under warranty. Well this was going to cost me more time from work and cost to have the pulleys swapped out twice. I did not see anywhere in the law where the Burdon of proof falls on my shoulders to help him prove his case. He now is saying that Ford Corporate denied warranty on the generator and he will not replace it. I again pointed out that there are cars in his lot that have the same aftermarket products installed and they warranty them, his comment, theirs were installed by a certified Ford mechanics. (his comment here makes no sense). And How about the “Pattern of failure” the TSB, it does not say “if you have aftermarket parts installed you get this error”.
Even If I reinstall the stock Pulleys I am tagged in their computer as a problem, no ford dealer will help me, I asked Several in the area and they all say the same thing, WARRANTY VOID PERIOD. "we do not fix modded cars"
It's almost like the dealers want a peice of the aftermarket pie, I mean look at my Ford dealers lot, there are 06 mustangs with shaker hood scoops, the service adv. told me that the UDP cause the alternator to run outside it's designed specs. did I here the him right, does'nt modifying the stock intake filter box with a Ramair scoop cause it to run outside it's intended specs ???
These guys are trying to corner the market by bashing the competition and scaring the consumer.
4/15/06, 10:01 PM
#2
Tasca Super Boss 429 Member
That's why I am afraid to put on any mods I can't pull off quickly. If you can take a car back to the dealer looking stock, there isn't anything they can say. Wait until the warranty is over or fight the man. Those are the rules. They will fight things that are obviously warranty problems, aftermarket parts give them an easy reason to say NO. I even ordered the full replacement sequential tailight harness for more money because there is no splicing wires (and I have been building electronics since 1966).
4/15/06, 10:26 PM
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(karman @ April 15, 2006, 10:04 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
That's why I am afraid to put on any mods I can't pull off quickly. If you can take a car back to the dealer looking stock, there isn't anything they can say. Wait until the warranty is over or fight the man. Those are the rules. They will fight things that are obviously warranty problems, aftermarket parts give them an easy reason to say NO. I even ordered the full replacement sequential tailight harness for more money because there is no splicing wires (and I have been building electronics since 1966).
[/b][/quote]
It's almost like the dealers want a peice of the aftermarket pie, I mean look at My ford dealers lot, there are 06 mustangs with shaker hood scoops, the service adv. told me that the UDP cause the alternator to run outside it's designed specs. did I here the him right, does'nt modifying the stock intake filter box with a Ramair scoop cause it to run outside it's intended specs ??? What about Saleen, those cars have Saleen Pulleys, or Roush they install Roush UDP's. (BTW, Roush pulleys are made by steeda) My dealer has a Steeda Mustang for sale on the Lot.. how is this any different???? it's not.
These guys are trying to corner the market by bashing the competition and scaring the consumer.
That's why I am afraid to put on any mods I can't pull off quickly. If you can take a car back to the dealer looking stock, there isn't anything they can say. Wait until the warranty is over or fight the man. Those are the rules. They will fight things that are obviously warranty problems, aftermarket parts give them an easy reason to say NO. I even ordered the full replacement sequential tailight harness for more money because there is no splicing wires (and I have been building electronics since 1966).
[/b][/quote]
It's almost like the dealers want a peice of the aftermarket pie, I mean look at My ford dealers lot, there are 06 mustangs with shaker hood scoops, the service adv. told me that the UDP cause the alternator to run outside it's designed specs. did I here the him right, does'nt modifying the stock intake filter box with a Ramair scoop cause it to run outside it's intended specs ??? What about Saleen, those cars have Saleen Pulleys, or Roush they install Roush UDP's. (BTW, Roush pulleys are made by steeda) My dealer has a Steeda Mustang for sale on the Lot.. how is this any different???? it's not.
These guys are trying to corner the market by bashing the competition and scaring the consumer.
4/17/06, 07:11 AM
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I've heard that some dealers are more accommodating than others on the use of aftermarket parts. I still can't understand them taking this attitude on your car though. They get paid for performing warranty work, so they obviously don't care about your business or customer service for that matter. A big part of this car's desirablilty and one of the reasons for the strong sales is the ability to modify it. Sorry to hear about your experience. Hopefully, you can find a way around this problem. Good luck!
4/17/06, 11:00 AM
#6
GT Member
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lodom @ April 17, 2006, 8:14 AM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
I've heard that some dealers are more accommodating than others on the use of aftermarket parts. I still can't understand them taking this attitude on your car though. They get paid for performing warranty work, so they obviously don't care about your business or customer service for that matter. A big part of this car's desirablilty and one of the reasons for the strong sales is the ability to modify it. Sorry to hear about your experience. Hopefully, you can find a way around this problem. Good luck!
[/b][/quote]
Actually, They do not get paid for warranty work that gets denied by FOMOCO. The Dealer is Required to Check for Aftermarket Parts and if they could be the cause or contribute to the failure of the warranty item.
More and More Dealers are not getting reembursed for warranty work from Ford Motor Corp. So Dealers are fighting back saying We will not work on cars with MODS, (unless these Mods are installed by a Certified Ford Mechanic) Ford MOCO is tired of fixing or replacing parts damaged my aftermarket parts and dealers are tired of not getting paid. I understand their dilemma, but the law states the Ford Must prove that the Aftermarket part caused the problem.
I've heard that some dealers are more accommodating than others on the use of aftermarket parts. I still can't understand them taking this attitude on your car though. They get paid for performing warranty work, so they obviously don't care about your business or customer service for that matter. A big part of this car's desirablilty and one of the reasons for the strong sales is the ability to modify it. Sorry to hear about your experience. Hopefully, you can find a way around this problem. Good luck!
[/b][/quote]
Actually, They do not get paid for warranty work that gets denied by FOMOCO. The Dealer is Required to Check for Aftermarket Parts and if they could be the cause or contribute to the failure of the warranty item.
More and More Dealers are not getting reembursed for warranty work from Ford Motor Corp. So Dealers are fighting back saying We will not work on cars with MODS, (unless these Mods are installed by a Certified Ford Mechanic) Ford MOCO is tired of fixing or replacing parts damaged my aftermarket parts and dealers are tired of not getting paid. I understand their dilemma, but the law states the Ford Must prove that the Aftermarket part caused the problem.
4/18/06, 10:16 AM
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Thanks for the update, and it makes sense. Someone else mentioned that anything you touch on the engine it could void the powertrain warranty, but not other systems on the car. I guess from the dealer's point of view, if the problem escalates and Ford finds out that there were actually mods to the car, the service dept could ultimately be in trouble for ignoring the parts and their potential to directly or indirectly cause the failure.
4/18/06, 08:56 PM
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(swieduwilt @ April 15, 2006, 7:50 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
I found a TSB in a Mustang forum - TSB 06-02-09 DTC P0340/P0344/P0345/P0349 - 4.6L 3V AND 5.4L 3V
Some 2005-2006 Mustang GT vehicles, equipped with 4.6L 3V engine, may exhibit a diagnostic trouble code (DTC) P0340 and/or P0344. This may be due to a malfunctioning diode or open phase connection in the generator.
I also Contacted Steeda Performance Parts in Pompano Beach, FL they stated that the underdrive pulleys only replace the Harmonic Balancer and Water pump pulleys, they do not touch the generator. They also stated to me that these pulleys were designed by ford engineers and are installed on some performance mustangs sold on some ford dealer’s lots including Saleen, SVT and Roush mustangs. So Ford can not deny warranty coverage of the alternator because of the Steeda pulleys.
They told me to go to SEMA.ORG website and Read the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, and that the dealer must prove that the aftermarket parts caused or contributed to the failure. I pointed this out to the dealer and they got very defensive and told me to take the car to my mechanic, put the stock pulleys on then if the car gets a code, they will fix it under warranty. [/b][/quote]
1. - Sorry to hear of your troubles
2. - The Steeda underdrive (unless they made a change in the last month) is not the same as Roush, Ford Aftermarket or Granatelli.
3. Unless they made a change in the last month - the Steeda underdrive pulley IS NOT designed by Ford Engineers and in fact, I have first hand knowledge that Steeda specs their under drives out with little inertia. As an example the Granatelli and Ford Racing Underdrive pulleys mimic the factory inertia weight. this eliminates the vibration commonly found in crank pulleys that have light nose weights
4. - The dealer was correct when they told you to change back and they would warranty it.
Here is the real problem - since your alt went out the dealer can deny your alt warranty and say IT IS directly related to the crank pulley change. As an example they can not void the power window switch warranty if you change the crank pulley because they can not "reasonably tie the 2 failures together.
You have 3 choices
1. change the pulley back to stock and get your warranty
2. take it up with Steeda - if they claim it would not void the warranty and it does then they owe you the fix
3. Pay the dealership to do the fix and then take them to small claims court. Just bring a print out from my link http://www.granatellimotorsports.com/magnusonmoss.htm
You will win because the court will side with the little guy. You are also entitled to get paid back for your time. The same holds true for Steeda though. Pay the dealer and then tell Steeda they owe you the money and if they don’t pay you have the same remedy
I found a TSB in a Mustang forum - TSB 06-02-09 DTC P0340/P0344/P0345/P0349 - 4.6L 3V AND 5.4L 3V
Some 2005-2006 Mustang GT vehicles, equipped with 4.6L 3V engine, may exhibit a diagnostic trouble code (DTC) P0340 and/or P0344. This may be due to a malfunctioning diode or open phase connection in the generator.
I also Contacted Steeda Performance Parts in Pompano Beach, FL they stated that the underdrive pulleys only replace the Harmonic Balancer and Water pump pulleys, they do not touch the generator. They also stated to me that these pulleys were designed by ford engineers and are installed on some performance mustangs sold on some ford dealer’s lots including Saleen, SVT and Roush mustangs. So Ford can not deny warranty coverage of the alternator because of the Steeda pulleys.
They told me to go to SEMA.ORG website and Read the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, and that the dealer must prove that the aftermarket parts caused or contributed to the failure. I pointed this out to the dealer and they got very defensive and told me to take the car to my mechanic, put the stock pulleys on then if the car gets a code, they will fix it under warranty. [/b][/quote]
1. - Sorry to hear of your troubles
2. - The Steeda underdrive (unless they made a change in the last month) is not the same as Roush, Ford Aftermarket or Granatelli.
3. Unless they made a change in the last month - the Steeda underdrive pulley IS NOT designed by Ford Engineers and in fact, I have first hand knowledge that Steeda specs their under drives out with little inertia. As an example the Granatelli and Ford Racing Underdrive pulleys mimic the factory inertia weight. this eliminates the vibration commonly found in crank pulleys that have light nose weights
4. - The dealer was correct when they told you to change back and they would warranty it.
Here is the real problem - since your alt went out the dealer can deny your alt warranty and say IT IS directly related to the crank pulley change. As an example they can not void the power window switch warranty if you change the crank pulley because they can not "reasonably tie the 2 failures together.
You have 3 choices
1. change the pulley back to stock and get your warranty
2. take it up with Steeda - if they claim it would not void the warranty and it does then they owe you the fix
3. Pay the dealership to do the fix and then take them to small claims court. Just bring a print out from my link http://www.granatellimotorsports.com/magnusonmoss.htm
You will win because the court will side with the little guy. You are also entitled to get paid back for your time. The same holds true for Steeda though. Pay the dealer and then tell Steeda they owe you the money and if they don’t pay you have the same remedy
4/18/06, 10:55 PM
#9
GT Member
Granatelli,
There are only 4 or 5 different UDP Crank pulleys,
I found that GMS, DMS and a couple more are the Same UDP's
[attachmentid=47393] GMS
[attachmentid=47392] DMS
Steeda and Roush are the Same
[attachmentid=47395] Roush
[attachmentid=47396] Steeda
SLP UDP Same Crank Pully as Roush / Steeda different waterpump pulley
MMR replaces the Alternator Pulley
[attachmentid=47394]
There are only 4 or 5 different UDP Crank pulleys,
I found that GMS, DMS and a couple more are the Same UDP's
[attachmentid=47393] GMS
[attachmentid=47392] DMS
Steeda and Roush are the Same
[attachmentid=47395] Roush
[attachmentid=47396] Steeda
SLP UDP Same Crank Pully as Roush / Steeda different waterpump pulley
MMR replaces the Alternator Pulley
[attachmentid=47394]
4/19/06, 10:10 AM
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I would serve them with a summons to small claims court. You will win, not because you are the little guy, but because the burden of proof is on them to PROVE that the modifications created the problem. Proving does not mean them just saying it. They have to present objective evidence that shows it is more likely than not that the mod caused the problem. If they cannot, you win. The fact that the burden of proof is on them makes it a difficult case for the dealership.
Ford knows the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, and I guarantee you this is not coming from Ford. This is your dealership being greedy and wanting you to pay for something you shouldn't. I would also contact the Ford Motor Company Legal Department and the Better Business Bureau and report this dealership to both. That probably won't yield much in the way of results, but it would make me feel better.
Ford knows the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, and I guarantee you this is not coming from Ford. This is your dealership being greedy and wanting you to pay for something you shouldn't. I would also contact the Ford Motor Company Legal Department and the Better Business Bureau and report this dealership to both. That probably won't yield much in the way of results, but it would make me feel better.
4/19/06, 01:39 PM
#11
Team Mustang Source
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(KansasCityTim @ April 19, 2006, 12:13 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
I would serve them with a summons to small claims court. You will win, not because you are the little guy, but because the burden of proof is on them to PROVE that the modifications created the problem. Proving does not mean them just saying it. They have to present objective evidence that shows it is more likely than not that the mod caused the problem. If they cannot, you win. The fact that the burden of proof is on them makes it a difficult case for the dealership.
Ford knows the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, and I guarantee you this is not coming from Ford. This is your dealership being greedy and wanting you to pay for something you shouldn't. I would also contact the Ford Motor Company Legal Department and the Better Business Bureau and report this dealership to both. That probably won't yield much in the way of results, but it would make me feel better.
[/b][/quote]
Agreed. Take 'em to court- don't back down
I would serve them with a summons to small claims court. You will win, not because you are the little guy, but because the burden of proof is on them to PROVE that the modifications created the problem. Proving does not mean them just saying it. They have to present objective evidence that shows it is more likely than not that the mod caused the problem. If they cannot, you win. The fact that the burden of proof is on them makes it a difficult case for the dealership.
Ford knows the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, and I guarantee you this is not coming from Ford. This is your dealership being greedy and wanting you to pay for something you shouldn't. I would also contact the Ford Motor Company Legal Department and the Better Business Bureau and report this dealership to both. That probably won't yield much in the way of results, but it would make me feel better.
[/b][/quote]
Agreed. Take 'em to court- don't back down
4/25/06, 05:18 AM
#12
GT Member
***UPDATE ***
I got the car back from the dealer with a new alternator, I put the stock pulleys back on, and last week I Got the CEL P0340 again....... So Not an Alternator or pulley problem. I do not know what is causing this.
I got the car back from the dealer with a new alternator, I put the stock pulleys back on, and last week I Got the CEL P0340 again....... So Not an Alternator or pulley problem. I do not know what is causing this.
4/25/06, 03:06 PM
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(2K05GT-TK @ April 25, 2006, 7:21 AM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
***UPDATE ***
I got the car back from the dealer with a new alternator, I put the stock pulleys back on, and last week I Got the CEL P0340 again....... So Not an Alternator or pulley problem. I do not know what is causing this.
[/b][/quote]
did they make you pay or they allowed it to be waranty work...
***UPDATE ***
I got the car back from the dealer with a new alternator, I put the stock pulleys back on, and last week I Got the CEL P0340 again....... So Not an Alternator or pulley problem. I do not know what is causing this.
[/b][/quote]
did they make you pay or they allowed it to be waranty work...
5/2/06, 07:45 AM
#14
GT Member
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(WERKED 66 @ April 25, 2006, 4:09 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
did they make you pay or they allowed it to be waranty work...
[/b][/quote]
No Charge from dealer #1
New UPDATE ....
The dealer #2 asked me to put the car back to stock, ALL ITEMS, Sequential Turn signals, Axle Back Mufflers, Steel Braided Hoses, 4.10 gears, Plenum Cover even the Pioneer AVIC-D1 NAV. The Car has a New Alternator, New PCM, New Cam position sensors. and still getting the P0340 Check engine Light. The Mechanic can't figure out what is causing the CEL, I am getting very disappointed. What is going on any ideas anyone ???
did they make you pay or they allowed it to be waranty work...
[/b][/quote]
No Charge from dealer #1
New UPDATE ....
The dealer #2 asked me to put the car back to stock, ALL ITEMS, Sequential Turn signals, Axle Back Mufflers, Steel Braided Hoses, 4.10 gears, Plenum Cover even the Pioneer AVIC-D1 NAV. The Car has a New Alternator, New PCM, New Cam position sensors. and still getting the P0340 Check engine Light. The Mechanic can't figure out what is causing the CEL, I am getting very disappointed. What is going on any ideas anyone ???
7/8/06, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by 2K05GT
Granatelli,
There are only 4 or 5 different UDP Crank pulleys,
I found that GMS, DMS and a couple more are the Same UDP's
[attachmentid=47393] GMS
[attachmentid=47392] DMS
Steeda and Roush are the Same
[attachmentid=47395] Roush
[attachmentid=47396] Steeda
SLP UDP Same Crank Pully as Roush / Steeda different waterpump pulley
MMR replaces the Alternator Pulley
[attachmentid=47394]
There are only 4 or 5 different UDP Crank pulleys,
I found that GMS, DMS and a couple more are the Same UDP's
[attachmentid=47393] GMS
[attachmentid=47392] DMS
Steeda and Roush are the Same
[attachmentid=47395] Roush
[attachmentid=47396] Steeda
SLP UDP Same Crank Pully as Roush / Steeda different waterpump pulley
MMR replaces the Alternator Pulley
[attachmentid=47394]
7/8/06, 06:54 PM
#16
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Originally Posted by ex-Galaxie500
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(KansasCityTim @ April 19, 2006, 12:13 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
I would serve them with a summons to small claims court. You will win, not because you are the little guy, but because the burden of proof is on them to PROVE that the modifications created the problem. Proving does not mean them just saying it. They have to present objective evidence that shows it is more likely than not that the mod caused the problem. If they cannot, you win. The fact that the burden of proof is on them makes it a difficult case for the dealership.
Ford knows the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, and I guarantee you this is not coming from Ford. This is your dealership being greedy and wanting you to pay for something you shouldn't. I would also contact the Ford Motor Company Legal Department and the Better Business Bureau and report this dealership to both. That probably won't yield much in the way of results, but it would make me feel better.
[/b]
I would serve them with a summons to small claims court. You will win, not because you are the little guy, but because the burden of proof is on them to PROVE that the modifications created the problem. Proving does not mean them just saying it. They have to present objective evidence that shows it is more likely than not that the mod caused the problem. If they cannot, you win. The fact that the burden of proof is on them makes it a difficult case for the dealership.
Ford knows the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, and I guarantee you this is not coming from Ford. This is your dealership being greedy and wanting you to pay for something you shouldn't. I would also contact the Ford Motor Company Legal Department and the Better Business Bureau and report this dealership to both. That probably won't yield much in the way of results, but it would make me feel better.
[/b]
I also agree
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