Suspension Overhaul
6/28/04, 07:35 PM
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I gotta do something... my ride quality is crap, my confidence in my car control is crap, and I am slowly beating the **** outta my headers. This isnt a race car, but I MIGHT put this car on a road course once a year or so...
My front suspension was overhauled about 10 years ago. New springs (620's with 1" drop) and LCAs. I am CONSIDERING keeping these parts, but going with new UCAs, sway bar (1" or 1 1/8", whichever I am told is better), and possibly aftermarket strut rods. I plan to box in the UCAs and LCAs just cause I like to cut and weld. I saw some pillow block sway bar frame mounts at NPD. They basically split in the middle, making them easier to install. Anyone have experiences, good or bad, with these? Where should I put hard bushings vs. soft bushings?
Of course, there are the obligatory subframe connectors. I will likely try my hand at making these myself.
On the rear, I would go with new stiffer springs, shackles, and bushings for those springs... hard bushings in the rear and soft ones in the front. How low does a mid eye drop it? How about a reverse eye?
I am not a smart suspension guy. My goals are better ride, better handling, and a aggressive stance. I think I need a 1" drop in the back (which I am doing now with drop blocks)for the tires I have now. If I go to a taller tire, I will need another inch. I HOPE you tell me that mid eye is a 1" drop and reverse eye is a 2" drop
Do I need new everything? Can I use those parts I mentioned? I need shocks... I want some good performance shocks, but I also have fillings that I need to keep in my teeth My current consideration was a KYB of some design. Someone mentioned Edelbrocks. I dont like the idea of $300 shocks unless they are gold plated, but if you guys can tell me they are worth it and will last a good while, I am not completely opposed to it.
I dunno... maybe I am way off base. I am going into this thinking I dont need uber exotic parts to get a nice handling and riding car. If this is not so, let me know. In fact... let me know what you would do on a 1970 Mustang
My front suspension was overhauled about 10 years ago. New springs (620's with 1" drop) and LCAs. I am CONSIDERING keeping these parts, but going with new UCAs, sway bar (1" or 1 1/8", whichever I am told is better), and possibly aftermarket strut rods. I plan to box in the UCAs and LCAs just cause I like to cut and weld. I saw some pillow block sway bar frame mounts at NPD. They basically split in the middle, making them easier to install. Anyone have experiences, good or bad, with these? Where should I put hard bushings vs. soft bushings?
Of course, there are the obligatory subframe connectors. I will likely try my hand at making these myself.
On the rear, I would go with new stiffer springs, shackles, and bushings for those springs... hard bushings in the rear and soft ones in the front. How low does a mid eye drop it? How about a reverse eye?
I am not a smart suspension guy. My goals are better ride, better handling, and a aggressive stance. I think I need a 1" drop in the back (which I am doing now with drop blocks)for the tires I have now. If I go to a taller tire, I will need another inch. I HOPE you tell me that mid eye is a 1" drop and reverse eye is a 2" drop
Do I need new everything? Can I use those parts I mentioned? I need shocks... I want some good performance shocks, but I also have fillings that I need to keep in my teeth
My current consideration was a KYB of some design. Someone mentioned Edelbrocks. I dont like the idea of $300 shocks unless they are gold plated, but if you guys can tell me they are worth it and will last a good while, I am not completely opposed to it.I dunno... maybe I am way off base. I am going into this thinking I dont need uber exotic parts to get a nice handling and riding car. If this is not so, let me know. In fact... let me know what you would do on a 1970 Mustang
6/29/04, 07:19 AM
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Well, if you want "g-machine" handling, that pig would need to go on a serious diet. With a 351C (heavy iron heads), blower (more weight way up front & high), battery, steel hood, and the AOD (heavy also), you've got a LOT of weight on the front end to try and turn... on a car that's well known for understeer tendencies.
ANYTHING you can do to get weight off the nose will be a good thing.
Decent handling and ride quality tend to be somewhat opposed, especially on a heavier car. However, you should be able to improve things from where they are now. I like to think that one should spend as much on suspension/brakes/wheel/tires as they did on engine/tranny/rear. Making it TURN and STOP are at least as important as making it GO, but most budgets don't reflect that...
Definitely add subframe connectors. Yeah, they add weight, but it's low and centered, and definitely needed with your HP level. You won't find an off-the-shelf Monte Carlo bar, but do some measuring - fabricate one if there's ANY way for it to fit around the air tube.
Now, here's a couple reading assignments for you, if you want to see where I'm headed with all this... Handling Packages and Negative Roll Systems. The way you're going to get decent handling without destroying the ride is thru suspension geometry. Make it work FOR you, instead of running super stiff springs to keep things from moving. I THINK you're basically looking for "Stage 2".
There are a couple options you could consider - progressive springs instead of the S26's, 4-1/2 leaf mideyes inplace of the L-11 leafs, and E-brock shocks in place of the Koni/Cureride combo. However, that "package" is pretty darn good. I'd call "Doug Nordin" at Global West and explain what you're after - MAKE SURE to speak to ONLY Doug, and MAKE SURE you tell him about the blown C up front - that may change some of the components.....
I won't go into great detail yet, as this post could be an entire book. I'd be glad to help answer any more questions or specific question you might have though!
BTW, there's a few suspension tech pages on my webpage - you may have already seen them... And, what tires and brakes are you planning - all the suspension work in the world can't overcome a bad tire choice. :shock:
ANYTHING you can do to get weight off the nose will be a good thing.
Decent handling and ride quality tend to be somewhat opposed, especially on a heavier car. However, you should be able to improve things from where they are now. I like to think that one should spend as much on suspension/brakes/wheel/tires as they did on engine/tranny/rear. Making it TURN and STOP are at least as important as making it GO, but most budgets don't reflect that...
Definitely add subframe connectors. Yeah, they add weight, but it's low and centered, and definitely needed with your HP level. You won't find an off-the-shelf Monte Carlo bar, but do some measuring - fabricate one if there's ANY way for it to fit around the air tube.
Now, here's a couple reading assignments for you, if you want to see where I'm headed with all this... Handling Packages and Negative Roll Systems. The way you're going to get decent handling without destroying the ride is thru suspension geometry. Make it work FOR you, instead of running super stiff springs to keep things from moving. I THINK you're basically looking for "Stage 2".
There are a couple options you could consider - progressive springs instead of the S26's, 4-1/2 leaf mideyes inplace of the L-11 leafs, and E-brock shocks in place of the Koni/Cureride combo. However, that "package" is pretty darn good. I'd call "Doug Nordin" at Global West and explain what you're after - MAKE SURE to speak to ONLY Doug, and MAKE SURE you tell him about the blown C up front - that may change some of the components.....
I won't go into great detail yet, as this post could be an entire book. I'd be glad to help answer any more questions or specific question you might have though!
BTW, there's a few suspension tech pages on my webpage - you may have already seen them... And, what tires and brakes are you planning - all the suspension work in the world can't overcome a bad tire choice. :shock:
6/29/04, 12:11 PM
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No need to type all those strong recommendations again... just wanted to add that down the road I intend to adopt a more European suspension model which is to use lighter springs with heavier (better quality / not KYB) shocks. I believe Edelbrock fits that description, though if Bilstein made a set I'd consider that route.
6/30/04, 11:40 AM
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Here is where I am gonna start:
1) Assure myself that the subframes are solid. Front driver might need some repair.
2) Figure out why my rear end is so greasy... I just cleaned that darn thing.
3) Add subframe connectors.
4) Add new rear springs - 4.5 leaf with reverse eye (1.5" drop) with new shackles and new busings. Would 5 leaf be too stiff? I think it would.
5) Add underrider traction bars.
6) Add new shocks all around. I have a set of KYB GAJ available to me for free, I think that should be a nice starting point.
7) Global West solid tie rods sleeves. These GOTTA be better than the stock ones.
That is all the farther I have gotten, and mainly because that stuff is rather brainless, and wont change based on what I do up front. As far as up front goes...
Cloney, you said these cars are prone to understeer. I have been told rear sway bars add oversteer. Do these (1970) cars call for rear sway bars? Should I instead go with Global Wests shackle kit?
That supercharger didnt add as much weight as I took off with the power steering, although it does sit higher. Iron heads really arent MY choice, but rather "what's available." There are aluminum heads starting to come out, but at $1600 bare and closed chambers, they are well out of my price range and compression ratio requirements.
Let's pick out front suspension stuff. I dont think I am hardcore enough to need full tubular everything, coil over this, adjustable that, etc. I want a nice handling machine, but I dont need a PORSCHE I need to be able to cruise at 85MPH on the way home from Iowa and not worry about controlling the car. If I can accomplish that, I am tickled.
Okay. After reading Cloney's articles, here is what I am thinking. I want SIMPLE BOLT-IN solutions. I also dont want to do something stupid financially (buying something now that I will junk in a few months). Here is what I come up with:
-Stock LCAs with GW UCAs. My problem here is this. I have NO more camber to take out of the car. I am as positive as I can get, and I am STILL negative (not by much). I have repop lower arms with rebuilt stock uppers. If I go with GW arms, or even a Shelby drop, I am gonna have more camber than I can get rid of. Thoughts? Ideas?
-Jointed strut rods (Streetortrack, GW, etc.). No brainer right?
-Bumpsteer correction kit. Baer? Seems to be the cheapest, and Cloney used it
-1" drop 620 springs (currenty installed). We will see how it sits and then go from there.
-Some type of bushed or roller perches. I am toying with making my own.
-Upgraded crossmember under the engine (dunno how much it will help, but might as well yeah?)
That is long term. I think I am looking at probably $1500 total investment not including alignment (although Cloney would tell me to do my own ).
Anyone else wanna correct anything I am thinking?
1) Assure myself that the subframes are solid. Front driver might need some repair.
2) Figure out why my rear end is so greasy... I just cleaned that darn thing.
3) Add subframe connectors.
4) Add new rear springs - 4.5 leaf with reverse eye (1.5" drop) with new shackles and new busings. Would 5 leaf be too stiff? I think it would.
5) Add underrider traction bars.
6) Add new shocks all around. I have a set of KYB GAJ available to me for free, I think that should be a nice starting point.
7) Global West solid tie rods sleeves. These GOTTA be better than the stock ones.
That is all the farther I have gotten, and mainly because that stuff is rather brainless, and wont change based on what I do up front. As far as up front goes...
Cloney, you said these cars are prone to understeer. I have been told rear sway bars add oversteer. Do these (1970) cars call for rear sway bars? Should I instead go with Global Wests shackle kit?
That supercharger didnt add as much weight as I took off with the power steering, although it does sit higher. Iron heads really arent MY choice, but rather "what's available." There are aluminum heads starting to come out, but at $1600 bare and closed chambers, they are well out of my price range and compression ratio requirements.
Let's pick out front suspension stuff. I dont think I am hardcore enough to need full tubular everything, coil over this, adjustable that, etc. I want a nice handling machine, but I dont need a PORSCHE
I need to be able to cruise at 85MPH on the way home from Iowa and not worry about controlling the car. If I can accomplish that, I am tickled.Okay. After reading Cloney's articles, here is what I am thinking. I want SIMPLE BOLT-IN solutions. I also dont want to do something stupid financially (buying something now that I will junk in a few months). Here is what I come up with:
-Stock LCAs with GW UCAs. My problem here is this. I have NO more camber to take out of the car. I am as positive as I can get, and I am STILL negative (not by much). I have repop lower arms with rebuilt stock uppers. If I go with GW arms, or even a Shelby drop, I am gonna have more camber than I can get rid of. Thoughts? Ideas?
-Jointed strut rods (Streetortrack, GW, etc.). No brainer right?
-Bumpsteer correction kit. Baer? Seems to be the cheapest, and Cloney used it
-1" drop 620 springs (currenty installed). We will see how it sits and then go from there.
-Some type of bushed or roller perches. I am toying with making my own.
-Upgraded crossmember under the engine (dunno how much it will help, but might as well yeah?)
That is long term. I think I am looking at probably $1500 total investment not including alignment (although Cloney would tell me to do my own
).Anyone else wanna correct anything I am thinking?
6/30/04, 11:53 AM
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How much are the GW tie rod sleeves... I pointed out awhile ago that Edelbrock makes a nice set of these at a pretty decent price point. Part number #5252 ... now keep in mind if you go with a bumpsteer kit like Baer or Delta Bay Mustang (cheaper than Baer I think), you won't need these connectors since they are included.
As far as strut rods they are a big improvement so def. get them.
The roller perches I do not understand how they help? They seem to be a myster cure all ... lot of "opinions" on their performance but I'm not following the concept.
I think Delta Bay is also pretty good on the crossmember... I would suggest welding in some additional plate to act as a jacking point.
As for your positive camber situation... maybe you have the wrong length lowers? Something strange about your situation. This got me thinking that you should convert to the screw in ball joints while your hacking and welding away there.
As far as strut rods they are a big improvement so def. get them.
The roller perches I do not understand how they help? They seem to be a myster cure all ... lot of "opinions" on their performance but I'm not following the concept.
I think Delta Bay is also pretty good on the crossmember... I would suggest welding in some additional plate to act as a jacking point.
As for your positive camber situation... maybe you have the wrong length lowers? Something strange about your situation. This got me thinking that you should convert to the screw in ball joints while your hacking and welding away there.
6/30/04, 12:46 PM
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Originally posted by Jay@June 30, 2004, 11:56 AM
The roller perches I do not understand how they help? They seem to be a myster cure all ... lot of "opinions" on their performance but I'm not following the concept.
The roller perches I do not understand how they help? They seem to be a myster cure all ... lot of "opinions" on their performance but I'm not following the concept.
I installed NEW perches with the rubber bushings. I needed to rotate them to fit the spring better during spring installation. I couldnt do it.
Here is what I THINK.
Since perch needs to rotate as the spring compresses and uncompresses, this isnt good. With a freer movement, the suspension can react quicker and respond better.
Here is what others think.
People that have used them now swear by them. Is it in their head?
Seems logical though.Also, the Delta Bay bump steer kit sells for $220, and is only for 65-69 unless I missed the 70-73 kits, but thanks on the tip about the sleeves!!
6/30/04, 01:00 PM
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I am never one to ascribe great perceptive powers to vendors, but if roller spring perches are so wonderful, isn't it funny that not a single Mustang aftermarket vendor has ever sold/hyped them to this point in aftermarket history? Wouldnt you think that M+, GW, heck, anyone would be selling these gems as the Holy Grail at some point in the last 20-odd years? I find it difficult to believe that this amazing Fountain of Superb Handling was sitting there all this time for us poor enthusiast-schmucks to discover..... 
....but maybe its just me.
________
Daisygirl
....but maybe its just me.
________
Daisygirl
Last edited by LMan; 8/20/11 at 07:33 AM.
6/30/04, 01:34 PM
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I'd skip the adjustable tierod sleeves - the Baer bumpsteer kit eliminates the need.
Here's what I would do with a ~$1500 budget...
FRONT
Global West MNR-73 Upper Arms - $550. (Hint - check this at Dallas Mustang - the picture is wrong, but the part # & description indicate the GW upper arms for $413!!! THAT's a STEAL if it's real - jump quick)
620's - already own for $0
1" Front Sway Bar - $100
GW SRB-5 Rubber strut rod bushings - $45 (see note below about adj strut rods)
New Lower arms - $80
Baer Bumpsteer Kit - $200
New inner tierods-$50?
New idler arm-$40?
REAR
4.5 leaf Mideyes - $175
Underride T-bars - $100
HD Urethane Shackle set - $50
OTHER
Subframe connectors - $100 or fabricate
Fabricate Monte Carlo Bar
OPTIONAL
Fabricate Bushed spring perches. I'm not 100% convinced a bearing is needed - Bronze or Delrin bushings work fine I had a set of urethane ones from NPD that rotated freely for about $75....
Roller Bearing for Idler Arm - $40
Front crossmember (do they make for a 70?)
I'm NOT a fan of KYB shocks, but the price is hard to pass. I'd sell them and spend the $250 for the E-brocks myself...
Since you're staying with stock lower arms, I'd consider the aftermarket strut rods "optional" @ $225ish. They are smooth, but you have to cut somewhere. I also fell they introduced quite a bit of harshness to mine - makes you "pucker up" on rough roads... I'd spend any extra $$$ on the shock upgrade before I spent it on strut rods myself.
Swaybar option would be to go 1-1/8" front bar and 5/8" rear. Depends on YOUR driving preference....
Here's what I would do with a ~$1500 budget...
FRONT
Global West MNR-73 Upper Arms - $550. (Hint - check this at Dallas Mustang - the picture is wrong, but the part # & description indicate the GW upper arms for $413!!! THAT's a STEAL if it's real - jump quick)
620's - already own for $0
1" Front Sway Bar - $100
GW SRB-5 Rubber strut rod bushings - $45 (see note below about adj strut rods)
New Lower arms - $80
Baer Bumpsteer Kit - $200
New inner tierods-$50?
New idler arm-$40?
REAR
4.5 leaf Mideyes - $175
Underride T-bars - $100
HD Urethane Shackle set - $50
OTHER
Subframe connectors - $100 or fabricate
Fabricate Monte Carlo Bar
OPTIONAL
Fabricate Bushed spring perches. I'm not 100% convinced a bearing is needed - Bronze or Delrin bushings work fine
I had a set of urethane ones from NPD that rotated freely for about $75....Roller Bearing for Idler Arm - $40
Front crossmember (do they make for a 70?)
I'm NOT a fan of KYB shocks, but the price is hard to pass. I'd sell them and spend the $250 for the E-brocks myself...
Since you're staying with stock lower arms, I'd consider the aftermarket strut rods "optional" @ $225ish. They are smooth, but you have to cut somewhere. I also fell they introduced quite a bit of harshness to mine - makes you "pucker up" on rough roads... I'd spend any extra $$$ on the shock upgrade before I spent it on strut rods myself.
Swaybar option would be to go 1-1/8" front bar and 5/8" rear. Depends on YOUR driving preference....
6/30/04, 04:13 PM
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Eccentric eliminators. They lock the lower control arm settings in so your camber settings do not shift. If you are running wider tires on the front you will one day discover the factory eccentric bolts have a hard time holding position.
2/11/05, 05:31 AM
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Originally posted by Jay@June 30, 2004, 4:16 PM
Eccentric eliminators. They lock the lower control arm settings in so your camber settings do not shift. If you are running wider tires on the front you will one day discover the factory eccentric bolts have a hard time holding position.
Eccentric eliminators. They lock the lower control arm settings in so your camber settings do not shift. If you are running wider tires on the front you will one day discover the factory eccentric bolts have a hard time holding position.
Where do I get these and how much do they cost??? I have that very camber issue. I am planning to have the Front end alligned because I just replaced all the bushings and tie-rods, springs and shocks. If I could get those before I take it in for the alingment I could save the trouble of have to do it again later.
Thanks
2/11/05, 10:00 AM
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Originally posted by jes72mustang+February 11, 2005, 6:34 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jes72mustang @ February 11, 2005, 6:34 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Jay@June 30, 2004, 4:16 PM
Eccentric eliminators. They lock the lower control arm settings in so your camber settings do not shift. If you are running wider tires on the front you will one day discover the factory eccentric bolts have a hard time holding position.
Eccentric eliminators. They lock the lower control arm settings in so your camber settings do not shift. If you are running wider tires on the front you will one day discover the factory eccentric bolts have a hard time holding position.
Where do I get these and how much do they cost??? I have that very camber issue. I am planning to have the Front end alligned because I just replaced all the bushings and tie-rods, springs and shocks. If I could get those before I take it in for the alingment I could save the trouble of have to do it again later.
Thanks
[/b][/quote]
pro motorsports engineering makes those. check them out at www.drgas.com
2/11/05, 10:09 AM
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hey guys, i don't about y'all but on the heavier 69/70 cars i would actually recommend a stiffer spring to keep the car from bottoming out. i have 720's on mine and i have a nice ride with them, but i also have a 351w with PS and AC and the battery is still in the stock location. with all that weight up front you really need a stiffer spring. i imagine the same would hold true of a supercharger up front. one thing i think a lot of people overlook when they talk about doing the euro style suspensions with softer springs is that almost all euro cars have struts. struts can inherently run softer springs because the load is transferred to to the lower control arms. from what i have read about this a setup like our cars with a stock syle suspension actually needs a stiffer spring or at least a variable rate spring that gets stiffer as it compresses to keep the car from bottoming out or at least to keep the suspension from bottoming, even with the 720's my car will still bottom out occasionally if i'm pushing it hard. now if you were to go with a tcp style strut front you could run a much softer spring and not have to worry about it. just another opinion to throw into the mix.
2/11/05, 07:15 PM
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Originally posted by bnickel+February 11, 2005, 11:03 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bnickel @ February 11, 2005, 11:03 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'>
Where do I get these and how much do they cost??? I have that very camber issue. I am planning to have the Front end alligned because I just replaced all the bushings and tie-rods, springs and shocks. If I could get those before I take it in for the alingment I could save the trouble of have to do it again later.
Thanks
Originally posted by jes72mustang@February 11, 2005, 6:34 AM
<!--QuoteBegin-Jay
<!--QuoteBegin-Jay
@June 30, 2004, 4:16 PM
Eccentric eliminators. They lock the lower control arm settings in so your camber settings do not shift. If you are running wider tires on the front you will one day discover the factory eccentric bolts have a hard time holding position.
Eccentric eliminators. They lock the lower control arm settings in so your camber settings do not shift. If you are running wider tires on the front you will one day discover the factory eccentric bolts have a hard time holding position.
Where do I get these and how much do they cost??? I have that very camber issue. I am planning to have the Front end alligned because I just replaced all the bushings and tie-rods, springs and shocks. If I could get those before I take it in for the alingment I could save the trouble of have to do it again later.
Thanks
pro motorsports engineering makes those. check them out at www.drgas.com
[/b][/quote]
Thanks for the links
