Track Related Mods
1/27/15, 02:01 PM
#1
Banned
Thread Starter
Join Date: August 2, 2013
Location: Little north of Stuttgart, Germany
Posts: 3,090
Received 254 Likes
on
230 Posts
Track Related Mods
Since it's the middle of Winter and my car is busy being dead to the world with the battery disconnected, I started ordering some parts to help out once track season is here.
I ordered the following parts:
1) more Motul RBF 600 brake fluid to do a complete flush before this season
2) Carbotech AX6 rear pads. I've been running XP10s on the front with great success, and stock Track Pack pads on the rear for track weekends. While the front has been holding up great, I have been overheating the back. AX6 is supposed to ba fade resistant to 1100F, which is about 300F more than my stock rear pads. They are also mild enough to be used in daily driving, so I plan to leave them on all the time. I'll report out how well this works vs. stock rear pads through the season.
I'm also planning on getting:
3) Stainless Steel brake lines to help with pedal firmness
4) Ford Racing GT500 cooling shields to help the front vent a bit better. I know this isn't nearly as efficient as cooling ducts, but at under $50 I figure it will help a little over having the big backing plates on.
5) Motor oil..... split on what kind. Penzoil Platinum 5W-50? Mobil 1 15W-50? Castrol Edge Syntec 5W-50? I could use some input here. What do you use for track days?
I'll probably install all the new goodies at the same time in April, just in time for my first track outing.
I ordered the following parts:
1) more Motul RBF 600 brake fluid to do a complete flush before this season
2) Carbotech AX6 rear pads. I've been running XP10s on the front with great success, and stock Track Pack pads on the rear for track weekends. While the front has been holding up great, I have been overheating the back. AX6 is supposed to ba fade resistant to 1100F, which is about 300F more than my stock rear pads. They are also mild enough to be used in daily driving, so I plan to leave them on all the time. I'll report out how well this works vs. stock rear pads through the season.
I'm also planning on getting:
3) Stainless Steel brake lines to help with pedal firmness
4) Ford Racing GT500 cooling shields to help the front vent a bit better. I know this isn't nearly as efficient as cooling ducts, but at under $50 I figure it will help a little over having the big backing plates on.
5) Motor oil..... split on what kind. Penzoil Platinum 5W-50? Mobil 1 15W-50? Castrol Edge Syntec 5W-50? I could use some input here. What do you use for track days?
I'll probably install all the new goodies at the same time in April, just in time for my first track outing.
1/27/15, 03:22 PM
#2
Mach 1 Member
I ran just the ford full synthetic oil last season racing! I change it every 5K mi.
I did mainly auto cross (8 events) and (2 trips to the drag strip)
What types of track days are you going to, I'm guessing by your brake issues it's a road course with some fairly long straights!
I did mainly auto cross (8 events) and (2 trips to the drag strip)
What types of track days are you going to, I'm guessing by your brake issues it's a road course with some fairly long straights!
1/27/15, 03:50 PM
#3
Banned
Thread Starter
Join Date: August 2, 2013
Location: Little north of Stuttgart, Germany
Posts: 3,090
Received 254 Likes
on
230 Posts
I ran just the ford full synthetic oil last season racing! I change it every 5K mi.
I did mainly auto cross (8 events) and (2 trips to the drag strip)
What types of track days are you going to, I'm guessing by your brake issues it's a road course with some fairly long straights!
I did mainly auto cross (8 events) and (2 trips to the drag strip)
What types of track days are you going to, I'm guessing by your brake issues it's a road course with some fairly long straights!
Good guess! Yes, I do HPDE events at road courses in Michigan. Grattan and Gingerman is where I like to go. Grattan particularly has a loooong straight going into a 135deg corner. So you go from 135mph to 60. Gingerman is heavy on the brakes all around. Lots of 90deg corners.Wow, 8 auto-x events is quite a bit, good work. Last year I used Motorcraft 5W-50 full syn as well. It works well enough I guess, but I talked to a few other Mustang guys at my events and they all were recommending using a better oil. So that got me thinking. First year i did my first event on factory syn-blend oil. Then changes it at 4k miles. I wonder if I should use something more heat resistant when my engine is between 4000 and 7000 rpm for 30 minutes at a time 4 times a day at these events.
So what kind of a brake set-up do you use for Auto-X?
Last edited by 5.M0NSTER; 1/27/15 at 03:55 PM.
1/27/15, 05:13 PM
#4
Mach 1 Member
All factory brake set up last year with not one sign of fade but I only race for about 1 minute at a time!
I will be hitting the road corse this year,
I have 3 great tracks within 2 hours of me,
LagunaSeca, Infineon Race Way, and Thunder Hill Racetrack
I have ran my other car on road corse about a a half dozen times(65 mustang), this year I will take out the 14!
I'm changing my suspension and tire set up currently!
Looks like we both got the same car! Stripped down with track pack and Recaro seats!
I will be hitting the road corse this year,
I have 3 great tracks within 2 hours of me,
LagunaSeca, Infineon Race Way, and Thunder Hill Racetrack
I have ran my other car on road corse about a a half dozen times(65 mustang), this year I will take out the 14!
I'm changing my suspension and tire set up currently!
Looks like we both got the same car! Stripped down with track pack and Recaro seats!
Last edited by ElkGroveFordGuy; 1/27/15 at 05:14 PM.
1/27/15, 05:23 PM
#5
Banned
Thread Starter
Join Date: August 2, 2013
Location: Little north of Stuttgart, Germany
Posts: 3,090
Received 254 Likes
on
230 Posts
Yeah, looks like it! Mine is also SGM and I have GT500 AB on mine as well. Looks like we had the same goal for what we expect out of the car. Simple and fast!
You will absolutely love your 14 on the track. I've always wanted to go to Laguna Seca. That's awesome you're so close to it. What suspension/tire mods are you doing?
After these brake mods, suspension will be my next big mod I think. Probably 2016.
You will absolutely love your 14 on the track. I've always wanted to go to Laguna Seca. That's awesome you're so close to it. What suspension/tire mods are you doing?
After these brake mods, suspension will be my next big mod I think. Probably 2016.
1/30/15, 05:24 PM
#6
Shelby GT350 Member
Yeah, looks like it! Mine is also SGM and I have GT500 AB on mine as well. Looks like we had the same goal for what we expect out of the car. Simple and fast!
You will absolutely love your 14 on the track. I've always wanted to go to Laguna Seca. That's awesome you're so close to it. What suspension/tire mods are you doing?
After these brake mods, suspension will be my next big mod I think. Probably 2016.
You will absolutely love your 14 on the track. I've always wanted to go to Laguna Seca. That's awesome you're so close to it. What suspension/tire mods are you doing?
After these brake mods, suspension will be my next big mod I think. Probably 2016.
Oil Analysis Thread
I'd suggest M1 over Motorcraft based on my results, and I've seen other threads on the Motorcraft oil that show it shears quickly, which is not so great for track days. Lose the protection that the 50 weight provides.
Looks like a good list otherwise - I thought you went for the low expansion Boss lines? Decided on SS?
I've been mapping out items to buy as well... helps me get through these snowy cold months!!
1/31/15, 02:05 PM
#7
Banned
Thread Starter
Join Date: August 2, 2013
Location: Little north of Stuttgart, Germany
Posts: 3,090
Received 254 Likes
on
230 Posts
Regarding oil, the below thread might have a bit of info you could find useful. I analyzed my Mobil 1 5w50 and then Motorcraft 5w50. Had track time on both oils. The Motorcraft sheared to ~40 weight pretty quickly, but the M1 held up better. I had Castrol in for the 2nd half of this past season, and I am waiting to have it changed till the spring, but I'll have that analyzed as well to add to the comparison.
Oil Analysis Thread
I'd suggest M1 over Motorcraft based on my results, and I've seen other threads on the Motorcraft oil that show it shears quickly, which is not so great for track days. Lose the protection that the 50 weight provides.
Looks like a good list otherwise - I thought you went for the low expansion Boss lines? Decided on SS?
I've been mapping out items to buy as well... helps me get through these snowy cold months!!
Oil Analysis Thread
I'd suggest M1 over Motorcraft based on my results, and I've seen other threads on the Motorcraft oil that show it shears quickly, which is not so great for track days. Lose the protection that the 50 weight provides.
Looks like a good list otherwise - I thought you went for the low expansion Boss lines? Decided on SS?
I've been mapping out items to buy as well... helps me get through these snowy cold months!!
1) Can't wait to see how the Castrol held up for you. It is easily available at my local Auto Zone, and I was considering using it this summer
2) I ran my first track weekend with ~3000 miles on the car, and the original factory fill oil. I got it changed at 4500miles. Now I sort of wish I changed it before my event. That may have been a bit much for the oil. I noticed it ate quite some oil, and I added almost a quart of M1 15W-50 the first day.
As for the SS lines, I found a set I'm happy with. I've been having a hard tire trusting the braking ability of my car to cheap SS lines made by companies I never heard of. I found a set by Russel for ~$120, and I think I'll go with that. I'll get them installed as soon as the car is out of storage, and make sure to get some time with them before my first event.
I thought of what you said, about the peace of mind and not worrying about a line bursting, and over time that helped push me to the SS side vs. Boss lines.
Last edited by 5.M0NSTER; 1/31/15 at 02:31 PM.
1/31/15, 03:05 PM
#8
Shelby GT350 Member
Good call on the SS lines... I have the Russell ones and have been happy so far with them. No issues at all.
I'm surprised your car ate that much oil. I've had essentially zero consumption even with all the track time. Not sure if you saw the threads on the oil catch can comparisons, but when I was at my local track Thompson, I caught like 3-4 ounces over 2 days I think it was. Limerock and Watkins Glen were not anywhere close to that level, but aside from catching that oil vapor, I've really seen almost no consumption at all. Hopefully yours reduces!
I'll be sure to post up the results from the Castrol oil once I get it. I think I'll have the car garaged until the end of March, and once I get it out the first thing I'll be doing is getting the oil changed. Gotta use up my last 2 free oil changes at the Ford dealer, although I only plan to put a couple hundred track miles on that Motorcraft before switching again to Castrol for the summer and fall. Picked up 10 quarts last fall when it was on sale buy 1 get 1 free.
I've been trying to keep away from the forums a bit as it's driving me a little nuts reading and thinking about car stuff when it's the middle of winter.
I'm surprised your car ate that much oil. I've had essentially zero consumption even with all the track time. Not sure if you saw the threads on the oil catch can comparisons, but when I was at my local track Thompson, I caught like 3-4 ounces over 2 days I think it was. Limerock and Watkins Glen were not anywhere close to that level, but aside from catching that oil vapor, I've really seen almost no consumption at all. Hopefully yours reduces!
I'll be sure to post up the results from the Castrol oil once I get it. I think I'll have the car garaged until the end of March, and once I get it out the first thing I'll be doing is getting the oil changed. Gotta use up my last 2 free oil changes at the Ford dealer, although I only plan to put a couple hundred track miles on that Motorcraft before switching again to Castrol for the summer and fall. Picked up 10 quarts last fall when it was on sale buy 1 get 1 free.
I've been trying to keep away from the forums a bit as it's driving me a little nuts reading and thinking about car stuff when it's the middle of winter.
2/2/15, 07:13 AM
#9
Banned
Thread Starter
Join Date: August 2, 2013
Location: Little north of Stuttgart, Germany
Posts: 3,090
Received 254 Likes
on
230 Posts
Yeah, I was a bit strange, and stopped as suddenly as it started. Car ate over a 1/2qt in the first 3 track sessions on Saturday. I added some M1 and then it didn't eat any from that point on. Had 1 more session Sat and 4 more Sunday. Now I've put over 7000 miles and another full track weekend with no noticeable consumption since then. I guess something finally seated right after the engine got warm enough.
2/11/15, 08:11 PM
#10
Banned
Thread Starter
Join Date: August 2, 2013
Location: Little north of Stuttgart, Germany
Posts: 3,090
Received 254 Likes
on
230 Posts
So I'm all set on my mod plans for the year. Some new Rear Pads, complete brake fluid flush, stainless brake lines and front GT500 "cooling shields". Not too glamorous, but will get my braking performance to where I want it to be this year.
Now next year, it's suspension time. So I've been researching my options. And holly %^*& there is a lot to choose from. I could use some opinions here.
I'm thinking ~1" drop since I will still DD my car in addition to weekend track warrior duty. I want a car that will handle very respectably on the track while still being civilized enough for DD (willing to accept some ride quality sacrifice and willing to pay extra $$ for adjustable dampers). Budget is ~$1300 for the parts.
Right now I'm thinking one of the following:
1) Koni Yallow with FRPP springs and GT500 mounts + Steeda Panhard bar
2) Steeda Sport Springs with Koni Yellow and GT500 mounts + Steeda Panhard bar
3) Eibach Sport System including springs, shocks and sway bars
What else should I consider?
Now next year, it's suspension time. So I've been researching my options. And holly %^*& there is a lot to choose from. I could use some opinions here.
I'm thinking ~1" drop since I will still DD my car in addition to weekend track warrior duty. I want a car that will handle very respectably on the track while still being civilized enough for DD (willing to accept some ride quality sacrifice and willing to pay extra $$ for adjustable dampers). Budget is ~$1300 for the parts.
Right now I'm thinking one of the following:
1) Koni Yallow with FRPP springs and GT500 mounts + Steeda Panhard bar
2) Steeda Sport Springs with Koni Yellow and GT500 mounts + Steeda Panhard bar
3) Eibach Sport System including springs, shocks and sway bars
What else should I consider?
Last edited by 5.M0NSTER; 2/11/15 at 08:13 PM.
2/11/15, 11:35 PM
#11
Currently a Corvette Owner!
Right now I'm thinking one of the following:
1) Koni Yallow with FRPP springs and GT500 mounts + Steeda Panhard bar
2) Steeda Sport Springs with Koni Yellow and GT500 mounts + Steeda Panhard bar
3) Eibach Sport System including springs, shocks and sway bars
What else should I consider?
1) Koni Yallow with FRPP springs and GT500 mounts + Steeda Panhard bar
2) Steeda Sport Springs with Koni Yellow and GT500 mounts + Steeda Panhard bar
3) Eibach Sport System including springs, shocks and sway bars
What else should I consider?
I have #3 in your list above (Eibach) in my 2011 GT. 3-4 track days per year. Love the set-up. I have the entire kit, as you mention, springs, shocks, and sways. Changes the entire attitude of the car. Good luck!
2/12/15, 06:47 AM
#12
Steeda can offer you the best of both worlds ... something that is great on the track & will not be too harsh on the street.
For example, this is what can be done with Steeda's suspension parts:
If you are interested ... we can run the numbers & provide you with a package price on the Steeda items.
Shoot me a p.m. with your email address & we will see where we are at.
Best Regards,
TJ
For example, this is what can be done with Steeda's suspension parts:
If you are interested ... we can run the numbers & provide you with a package price on the Steeda items.
Shoot me a p.m. with your email address & we will see where we are at.
Best Regards,
TJ
2/12/15, 05:00 PM
#13
Shelby GT350 Member
Shoot a PM to todcp - I know him pretty well from track days. He has a lot of experience with suspension setups on various cars specifically for the track. Currently has a 2014 GT TP.
I'll post some feedback when I have more than 2 free mins too
I'll post some feedback when I have more than 2 free mins too
2/12/15, 09:11 PM
#14
Banned
Thread Starter
Join Date: August 2, 2013
Location: Little north of Stuttgart, Germany
Posts: 3,090
Received 254 Likes
on
230 Posts
Steeda can offer you the best of both worlds ... something that is great on the track & will not be too harsh on the street.
For example, this is what can be done with Steeda's suspension parts:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_snajrgC0g
If you are interested ... we can run the numbers & provide you with a package price on the Steeda items.
Shoot me a p.m. with your email address & we will see where we are at.
Best Regards,
TJ
For example, this is what can be done with Steeda's suspension parts:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_snajrgC0g
If you are interested ... we can run the numbers & provide you with a package price on the Steeda items.
Shoot me a p.m. with your email address & we will see where we are at.
Best Regards,
TJ
2/15/15, 03:56 PM
#15
Shelby GT350 Member
So I'm all set on my mod plans for the year. Some new Rear Pads, complete brake fluid flush, stainless brake lines and front GT500 "cooling shields". Not too glamorous, but will get my braking performance to where I want it to be this year.
Now next year, it's suspension time. So I've been researching my options. And holly %^*& there is a lot to choose from. I could use some opinions here.
I'm thinking ~1" drop since I will still DD my car in addition to weekend track warrior duty. I want a car that will handle very respectably on the track while still being civilized enough for DD (willing to accept some ride quality sacrifice and willing to pay extra $$ for adjustable dampers). Budget is ~$1300 for the parts.
Right now I'm thinking one of the following:
1) Koni Yallow with FRPP springs and GT500 mounts + Steeda Panhard bar
2) Steeda Sport Springs with Koni Yellow and GT500 mounts + Steeda Panhard bar
3) Eibach Sport System including springs, shocks and sway bars
What else should I consider?
Now next year, it's suspension time. So I've been researching my options. And holly %^*& there is a lot to choose from. I could use some opinions here.
I'm thinking ~1" drop since I will still DD my car in addition to weekend track warrior duty. I want a car that will handle very respectably on the track while still being civilized enough for DD (willing to accept some ride quality sacrifice and willing to pay extra $$ for adjustable dampers). Budget is ~$1300 for the parts.
Right now I'm thinking one of the following:
1) Koni Yallow with FRPP springs and GT500 mounts + Steeda Panhard bar
2) Steeda Sport Springs with Koni Yellow and GT500 mounts + Steeda Panhard bar
3) Eibach Sport System including springs, shocks and sway bars
What else should I consider?
If you have budget, do adjustable shocks/struts for sure. I did Koni STR.T's and while they are a nice improvement, I almost immediately "outgrew" them and wanted adjustable ones. That said, lots of guys have great things to say about the Koni Yellows paired with various springs. The reason I suggested you contact Tod is because he just went with some "custom" spring rates from BMR. They have all different spring rates (liner and progressive I believe) and are probably what I'll go with eventually.
If you don't want to go that route (it is a bit more pricey), a set of Ford Racing springs paired with Koni's is a safe bet, and if you want to get a little more aggressive with ride height and spring rate, Steeda has their "competition" springs and H&R has their "race" springs. I've been considering these too. But adjustable shocks/struts first for me.
Then there is the whole control arm aspect, and sway relocation brackets, and watts link vs panhard bar etc etc... Easy to dump a crap load of money in, but for the occasional track day, the OEM stuff works OK. I've run good times at various tracks.
I have yet to touch my sway bars - again, OEM is working fairly well, but they make it pretty easy to dial in the right amount of oversteer to suit driving. I'll probably work in new sways in the somewhat near future.
Hope this helps some. Once you do the suspension, the OEM will be remembered as floaty, despite how good it felt initially from the factory!
2/16/15, 10:00 AM
#16
Banned
Thread Starter
Join Date: August 2, 2013
Location: Little north of Stuttgart, Germany
Posts: 3,090
Received 254 Likes
on
230 Posts
OK finally have some time to put a few thoughts down...
If you have budget, do adjustable shocks/struts for sure. I did Koni STR.T's and while they are a nice improvement, I almost immediately "outgrew" them and wanted adjustable ones. That said, lots of guys have great things to say about the Koni Yellows paired with various springs. The reason I suggested you contact Tod is because he just went with some "custom" spring rates from BMR. They have all different spring rates (liner and progressive I believe) and are probably what I'll go with eventually.
If you don't want to go that route (it is a bit more pricey), a set of Ford Racing springs paired with Koni's is a safe bet, and if you want to get a little more aggressive with ride height and spring rate, Steeda has their "competition" springs and H&R has their "race" springs. I've been considering these too. But adjustable shocks/struts first for me.
Then there is the whole control arm aspect, and sway relocation brackets, and watts link vs panhard bar etc etc... Easy to dump a crap load of money in, but for the occasional track day, the OEM stuff works OK. I've run good times at various tracks.
I have yet to touch my sway bars - again, OEM is working fairly well, but they make it pretty easy to dial in the right amount of oversteer to suit driving. I'll probably work in new sways in the somewhat near future.
Hope this helps some. Once you do the suspension, the OEM will be remembered as floaty, despite how good it felt initially from the factory!
If you have budget, do adjustable shocks/struts for sure. I did Koni STR.T's and while they are a nice improvement, I almost immediately "outgrew" them and wanted adjustable ones. That said, lots of guys have great things to say about the Koni Yellows paired with various springs. The reason I suggested you contact Tod is because he just went with some "custom" spring rates from BMR. They have all different spring rates (liner and progressive I believe) and are probably what I'll go with eventually.
If you don't want to go that route (it is a bit more pricey), a set of Ford Racing springs paired with Koni's is a safe bet, and if you want to get a little more aggressive with ride height and spring rate, Steeda has their "competition" springs and H&R has their "race" springs. I've been considering these too. But adjustable shocks/struts first for me.
Then there is the whole control arm aspect, and sway relocation brackets, and watts link vs panhard bar etc etc... Easy to dump a crap load of money in, but for the occasional track day, the OEM stuff works OK. I've run good times at various tracks.
I have yet to touch my sway bars - again, OEM is working fairly well, but they make it pretty easy to dial in the right amount of oversteer to suit driving. I'll probably work in new sways in the somewhat near future.
Hope this helps some. Once you do the suspension, the OEM will be remembered as floaty, despite how good it felt initially from the factory!
I want to do springs/shocks + panhard for sure. This will be step 1. I was leaning towards adjustable dampers, and now with your feedback I'm fairly certain that's the direction I will go. So I'll start there and see if I need to go to Step 2.
Step 2 would then be sway bars.
And that's as fas as I'm willing to go. I want to avoid control arms, relo brackets, as well as any watts conversions. Huge money pit as you mentioned, and my goal is tighter/stiffer feeling suspension which handles transitions better than stock with less dive/squat/roll. I think I can achieve this with springs/shocks/panhard and/or sways. And my car won't ever be track-only, so daily drive-ability is still a concern.
Thanks again for the advice!
2/16/15, 04:27 PM
#17
Shelby GT350 Member
Reducing the dive under hard braking has been one of my favorite improvements... massive difference. Car used to feel like it was doing an endo at the track, now it's much more controlled.
Koni usually does a sale come April/May timeframe, so definitely keep an eye on that! It was 25% off list price last year.
Koni usually does a sale come April/May timeframe, so definitely keep an eye on that! It was 25% off list price last year.
2/16/15, 05:03 PM
#18
Currently a Corvette Owner!
Something to consider to your Step 1...sways. Not only do better sway-bars offer more control under transitions, the better durometer bushings and mounts make a big difference over stock. Even for DD, and the occasional track day. Keep us posted on your progress.
2/16/15, 08:23 PM
#19
Banned
Thread Starter
Join Date: August 2, 2013
Location: Little north of Stuttgart, Germany
Posts: 3,090
Received 254 Likes
on
230 Posts
I will have 2 track days this season, where I'll be paying more attention to my suspension needs/wants, and this time next year I'll be ready to pull the trigger on whatever setup I decide on.
I'm the kind of person who does a LOT of thinking before making a major decision like this, so bear with me
. You know, measure 2345 times in 3 different units, and cut once 
P.S. I'm glad to hear the Eibach kit is working well for you. Your car looks really good in the corners
2/24/15, 04:41 PM
#20
Shelby GT500 Member
I really like this thread. I just wish I had 10K to spend on all the suspension stuff I want.
MM Camber plates
Koni Yellows
Eibach Sportlines, sways
Steeda endlinks
Steeda front sway mounts
Steeda bumpsteer kit
BMR UCA adjustable w/ mount
BMR LCA's adjustable w/relocation brackets
Steeda Watts link
BMR K-member
BMR Rad support
BMR Front LCA's adjustable
Steeda rear strut bar
Steeda rear X-brace
KB bracing
JLT brake ducts
Willwood rear pads / rotor upgrade
Steeda roll cage 4 point
Rear seat delete
SVE drifts
Pilot Sport Cups
I know the brake stuff isn't really suspension but it all ties into the handling of the car. That pretty much finishes the track set-up I want for my car though.
MM Camber plates
Koni Yellows
Eibach Sportlines, sways
Steeda endlinks
Steeda front sway mounts
Steeda bumpsteer kit
BMR UCA adjustable w/ mount
BMR LCA's adjustable w/relocation brackets
Steeda Watts link
BMR K-member
BMR Rad support
BMR Front LCA's adjustable
Steeda rear strut bar
Steeda rear X-brace
KB bracing
JLT brake ducts
Willwood rear pads / rotor upgrade
Steeda roll cage 4 point
Rear seat delete
SVE drifts
Pilot Sport Cups
I know the brake stuff isn't really suspension but it all ties into the handling of the car. That pretty much finishes the track set-up I want for my car though.
Last edited by Stevedotmil; 2/24/15 at 05:14 PM.