Powertrain clarification
1/5/15, 03:30 PM
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Powertrain clarification
Brought the car (2013 GT 49,xxx miles) in for a leak. Thought it was oil. Dealer just called and said its the transmission cooler line going to the cooler behind radiator and needs to be replaced to the tune of $617, or $937 if I have it flushed also.
My Bumper to bumper is up and they said it is not covered under Powertrain warranty that I still have. I'm just trying to find out if transmission is considered part of powertrain and if so are the lines coming from the trans covered. I know transmission is usually referred to as drivetrain but I don't even see that on my warranty card. Just Bumper to bumper, powertrain, corrosion. Just wondering if they lobbed transmission/drivetrain in with powertrain. Dealer says no, but their tech also said at first that it was power steering fluid.
My Bumper to bumper is up and they said it is not covered under Powertrain warranty that I still have. I'm just trying to find out if transmission is considered part of powertrain and if so are the lines coming from the trans covered. I know transmission is usually referred to as drivetrain but I don't even see that on my warranty card. Just Bumper to bumper, powertrain, corrosion. Just wondering if they lobbed transmission/drivetrain in with powertrain. Dealer says no, but their tech also said at first that it was power steering fluid.
1/5/15, 07:27 PM
#2
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A tech being incorrect about which part is leaking is not any grounds for anything. It's a guestimate and is not binding.
From page 28 of the 2013 Warranty PDF from Ford:
http://www.ford.com/resources/ford/g...13Warranty.pdf
I don't know if this means the trans cooler lines are part of the transmission or not. I suspect not, and is a 'wear item'. You'll have to get the dealer to specify, and/or get another dealer, and/or get Deysha on it. I, for one, would think that if the transmission requires the lines, then the lines are part of the transmission, myself... but then, it's not a 'hard part', so there's that issue...
Lawyerspeak at best, though.
That being said, a search on fordparts.com reveals the tubes in question are anywhere from $110 to 240 depending on the engine/transmission used in the car. And $300 for a trans flush... wow. That's pretty high, I'd say, even for a dealer.
If it's an auto, there' 10 quarts of fluid. 3 if it's manual. Plus the drain, and refill, as well as the line replacement.
Of course, it could be an O-ring. Still requires drain/refill, but at least you'd save the part cost. Did you ask to be taken under the car to inspect it so you could verify and understand what was wrong?
From page 28 of the 2013 Warranty PDF from Ford:
Important Information about List of Parts
There may be additional coverage for these parts through the Bumper to Bumper, Powertrain, or Diesel Engine limited warranties. In any case, the warranty with the broadest coverage applies.
Also covered by this warranty are all emissions-related bulbs, hoses,clamps, brackets, tubes, gaskets, seals, belts, connectors, non diesel fuel
lines, and wiring harnesses...
There may be additional coverage for these parts through the Bumper to Bumper, Powertrain, or Diesel Engine limited warranties. In any case, the warranty with the broadest coverage applies.
Also covered by this warranty are all emissions-related bulbs, hoses,clamps, brackets, tubes, gaskets, seals, belts, connectors, non diesel fuel
lines, and wiring harnesses...
I don't know if this means the trans cooler lines are part of the transmission or not. I suspect not, and is a 'wear item'. You'll have to get the dealer to specify, and/or get another dealer, and/or get Deysha on it. I, for one, would think that if the transmission requires the lines, then the lines are part of the transmission, myself... but then, it's not a 'hard part', so there's that issue...
Lawyerspeak at best, though.
That being said, a search on fordparts.com reveals the tubes in question are anywhere from $110 to 240 depending on the engine/transmission used in the car. And $300 for a trans flush... wow. That's pretty high, I'd say, even for a dealer.
If it's an auto, there' 10 quarts of fluid. 3 if it's manual. Plus the drain, and refill, as well as the line replacement.
Of course, it could be an O-ring. Still requires drain/refill, but at least you'd save the part cost. Did you ask to be taken under the car to inspect it so you could verify and understand what was wrong?
Last edited by houtex; 1/5/15 at 07:33 PM.
1/6/15, 09:11 AM
#3
Mach 1 Member
If he said leaking power steering fluid then he is unfamiliar with the product because the car is electric power steering. From my experience with Warranties the trans cooler and or lines are likely excluded from the power train even though the trans would be covered. And I have no idea about the cost of Ford ATF. But find out what all the service would include. If they are changing the filter and flushing it sounds very reasonable to me. And our trans flush machine at work requires 12 quarts of fluid to work... The amount of fluid the vehicle requires is not even in the equation.
1/6/15, 09:57 AM
#4
GT Member
That's a bunch of BS. The lines should definitely be covered. I know on GM and Chrysler it is covered by power train warranty.
Think of it this way, the transmission "NEEDS" the lines to be a functional part of the power train. If they are leaking, ultimately the transmission would bleed out and fail. At that point they would be replacing the entire transmission including lines under the power train warranty.
Saying the lines are not covered would be like saying a leak in the trans pan wouldn't be covered. Fluid is needed and are integral in the function of the transmission and power train. Without that fluid, the unit whether it be the engine, transmission, or rear axle will fail and they would be replacing the entire unit.
Like other had mentioned, there is no powersteering cooler as these have electric steering.
I'd escalate this and not back down from LOGIC, as it seems like the service writer has. Ask them, so if I just keep driving and transmission fails, then what.
What if you never went it, just drove your car like normal, didn't expect anything to go wrong, and bam the trans fails from lack of fluid from this part that is integral to the transmission function...they would be warranting it!
Looking at warranty PDF I would argue the leak should be covered by the "seals and gaskets" part of transmission power train warranty. The cooler line which is integral in transmission function is not "sealing" which is causing the leak. That should be covered by the "seals and gasket" claim....At least in a logical world LOL!
Think of it this way, the transmission "NEEDS" the lines to be a functional part of the power train. If they are leaking, ultimately the transmission would bleed out and fail. At that point they would be replacing the entire transmission including lines under the power train warranty.
Saying the lines are not covered would be like saying a leak in the trans pan wouldn't be covered. Fluid is needed and are integral in the function of the transmission and power train. Without that fluid, the unit whether it be the engine, transmission, or rear axle will fail and they would be replacing the entire unit.
Like other had mentioned, there is no powersteering cooler as these have electric steering.
I'd escalate this and not back down from LOGIC, as it seems like the service writer has. Ask them, so if I just keep driving and transmission fails, then what.
What if you never went it, just drove your car like normal, didn't expect anything to go wrong, and bam the trans fails from lack of fluid from this part that is integral to the transmission function...they would be warranting it!
Looking at warranty PDF I would argue the leak should be covered by the "seals and gaskets" part of transmission power train warranty. The cooler line which is integral in transmission function is not "sealing" which is causing the leak. That should be covered by the "seals and gasket" claim....At least in a logical world LOL!
Last edited by Turbo302; 1/6/15 at 10:07 AM.
1/6/15, 03:04 PM
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Thanks to all for the input. In regards to them saying it was power steering fluid, I didn't mean it would make them liable for anything by misdiagnosing what was leaking. I just mentioned it bc I thought it was funny because of the Electric power steering issue. Headlight fluid was a quart low as well.
As far as the line itself it was a crack about 3 inches long in the hard line itself about 4 inches from where it goes in to cooler. He told me when they found it that it would be covered if I still had bumper to bumper, but not under powertrain. He said the transmission and internal components itself is covered but not any lines going or coming from it. Which I said was kind of messed up. He said it was one of those things that just isn't covered. My manual is in the glove box at the dealer so that's why I posted. As well as PM'd Deysha yest. but have not heard back.
I will say after reading the PDF (thanks houtex that's what I was looking for) it makes no direct mention of trans lines being covered or not covered. But by assumption the powertrain portion even though under Direct injection/diesel mentions fuel lines not being covered. I would assume the dealer would draw the correlation that any lines as not being an internal part of drive/powertrain are not covered.
Is it BS, I feel it is. Its more so a feeling of I have this part that should never really just go bad at worst would rust out, its a $104 hard trans line, but it cracks at 50k miles for no reason. Meanwhile theres 84 eldorados that have 30 yr old hard lines that are fine. I just don't feel that its a wear out item like tires or brake pads. Like if your steering wheel just randomly broke in half it wouldn't be covered, but really common sense is like WTF? theres no reason that should happen. Its suspended under the car, its covered by a plastic shield that shows no damage or scratches so I didn't run over something to cause it. It is also shielded by a radiator in front, and ac condenser in back from my memory. So the entire reason for failure is "just because" C'mon Man!?
I'm having the line replaced for the $600 simply bc I have to. the flush is $320 by itself as a "recommended precaution" but im skipping that as I don't feel a flush is a replacement for actual fluid change service let alone I don't see debris getting in from a hairline crack. I will go to an independent from now on as this is my last trip to a Stealership for anything not under warranty.
Honestly the only reason I went to the dealer is bc the fluid was a dark brown from mixing with road grime under car and I thought oil so powertrain warranty clicked in my head. Jackstands only got me so far under car to know I needed a lift to see any better.
Car is ready, it sucks but I don't have a choice. Just have to bite the bullet. I don't feel I should but I need my car.
As far as the line itself it was a crack about 3 inches long in the hard line itself about 4 inches from where it goes in to cooler. He told me when they found it that it would be covered if I still had bumper to bumper, but not under powertrain. He said the transmission and internal components itself is covered but not any lines going or coming from it. Which I said was kind of messed up. He said it was one of those things that just isn't covered. My manual is in the glove box at the dealer so that's why I posted. As well as PM'd Deysha yest. but have not heard back.
I will say after reading the PDF (thanks houtex that's what I was looking for) it makes no direct mention of trans lines being covered or not covered. But by assumption the powertrain portion even though under Direct injection/diesel mentions fuel lines not being covered. I would assume the dealer would draw the correlation that any lines as not being an internal part of drive/powertrain are not covered.
Is it BS, I feel it is. Its more so a feeling of I have this part that should never really just go bad at worst would rust out, its a $104 hard trans line, but it cracks at 50k miles for no reason. Meanwhile theres 84 eldorados that have 30 yr old hard lines that are fine. I just don't feel that its a wear out item like tires or brake pads. Like if your steering wheel just randomly broke in half it wouldn't be covered, but really common sense is like WTF? theres no reason that should happen. Its suspended under the car, its covered by a plastic shield that shows no damage or scratches so I didn't run over something to cause it. It is also shielded by a radiator in front, and ac condenser in back from my memory. So the entire reason for failure is "just because" C'mon Man!?
I'm having the line replaced for the $600 simply bc I have to. the flush is $320 by itself as a "recommended precaution" but im skipping that as I don't feel a flush is a replacement for actual fluid change service let alone I don't see debris getting in from a hairline crack. I will go to an independent from now on as this is my last trip to a Stealership for anything not under warranty.
Honestly the only reason I went to the dealer is bc the fluid was a dark brown from mixing with road grime under car and I thought oil so powertrain warranty clicked in my head. Jackstands only got me so far under car to know I needed a lift to see any better.
Car is ready, it sucks but I don't have a choice. Just have to bite the bullet. I don't feel I should but I need my car.
1/6/15, 03:07 PM
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Also I hoped they watched their speed if they test drove it as I reset my GPS when I dropped it off and it will show the max speed reached, miles driven, etc. Seeing all the joyriding stories lately has me paranoid to give anyone my keys.
1/6/15, 03:22 PM
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So.......if you drove your Mustang until all the transmission fluid leaked out and destroyed it, your dealer would have fixed it and it would be free to you?
I had my local dealer flush and change the filter (screen) for $199.68 with tax added, on my v6. Just saying.....
I had my local dealer flush and change the filter (screen) for $199.68 with tax added, on my v6. Just saying.....
1/6/15, 03:58 PM
#8
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Regardless of if the trans failed because of the leak... The lines would not be covered. In fact some Warranties I have worked with in that type of situation would likely try and decline replacing the trans due to negligence or some other lawyer speak verbiage. It is unfortunate but how Warranties work. Especially Aftermarket Extended Warranties... I hope Deysha can offer the OP some assistance. But unfortunately cars are man made... And parts fail regardless of if we think they should or not...
1/6/15, 04:15 PM
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Regardless of if the trans failed because of the leak... The lines would not be covered. In fact some Warranties I have worked with in that type of situation would likely try and decline replacing the trans due to negligence or some other lawyer speak verbiage. It is unfortunate but how Warranties work. Especially Aftermarket Extended Warranties... I hope Deysha can offer the OP some assistance. But unfortunately cars are man made... And parts fail regardless of if we think they should or not...
1/6/15, 05:14 PM
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Yeah not to mention I only have 10k left on powertrain. My luck it would blow at 10,001. I paid, it sucks, it's fixed, hopefully it's over and done. I still feel that hard lines should be covered under powertrain. Rubber not so much. But hard yes. To be honest I've always felt separate warranties are BS. Give me 50k or 60k warranty for everything. Otherwise it says to me that you trust your motor more than the rest of the car. But i guess it's just how it's done. Now that the holidays and this repair have thrashed the bank account I think I'll open that Crown gift set I got for Christmas.
1/6/15, 05:46 PM
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Yeah not to mention I only have 10k left on powertrain. My luck it would blow at 10,001. I paid, it sucks, it's fixed, hopefully it's over and done. I still feel that hard lines should be covered under powertrain. Rubber not so much. But hard yes. To be honest I've always felt separate warranties are BS. Give me 50k or 60k warranty for everything. Otherwise it says to me that you trust your motor more than the rest of the car. But i guess it's just how it's done. Now that the holidays and this repair have thrashed the bank account I think I'll open that Crown gift set I got for Christmas.
1/9/15, 07:50 AM
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A tech being incorrect about which part is leaking is not any grounds for anything. It's a guestimate and is not binding.
I don't know if this means the trans cooler lines are part of the transmission or not. I suspect not, and is a 'wear item'. You'll have to get the dealer to specify, and/or get another dealer, and/or get Deysha on it. I, for one, would think that if the transmission requires the lines, then the lines are part of the transmission, myself... but then, it's not a 'hard part', so there's that issue...
I don't know if this means the trans cooler lines are part of the transmission or not. I suspect not, and is a 'wear item'. You'll have to get the dealer to specify, and/or get another dealer, and/or get Deysha on it. I, for one, would think that if the transmission requires the lines, then the lines are part of the transmission, myself... but then, it's not a 'hard part', so there's that issue...
Regardless of if the trans failed because of the leak... The lines would not be covered. In fact some Warranties I have worked with in that type of situation would likely try and decline replacing the trans due to negligence or some other lawyer speak verbiage. It is unfortunate but how Warranties work. Especially Aftermarket Extended Warranties... I hope Deysha can offer the OP some assistance. But unfortunately cars are man made... And parts fail regardless of if we think they should or not...
Yeah not to mention I only have 10k left on powertrain. My luck it would blow at 10,001. I paid, it sucks, it's fixed, hopefully it's over and done. I still feel that hard lines should be covered under powertrain. Rubber not so much. But hard yes. To be honest I've always felt separate warranties are BS. Give me 50k or 60k warranty for everything. Otherwise it says to me that you trust your motor more than the rest of the car. But i guess it's just how it's done. Now that the holidays and this repair have thrashed the bank account I think I'll open that Crown gift set I got for Christmas.
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