gambi06

Hi everyone,

I noticed recently that C&L ships a "no-tune" insert sleeve with all their new Street CAI kits, and since a lot of people won't be using it, due to pairing their CAI up with a tuner for maximum performance, I was wondering if anyone wanted to part with their insert?
Let me know, thanks!

-Gambi06

DoctorQ

if you can't nab one off this forum, I know Lee (C&L) stated he'll provide new insert for $32 (something like that).

kevinb120

I am sure a lot of them will end up in the trash can. Post something in the wanted forums about it, about 95% of the new owners of them won't be using it. There are probably owners who already got it then upgraded to a tune already as well.

mvon919

pic of that insert? is it just restricting the flow, thus making the whole idea of that CAI useless? that's stupid.

CAI needs tune. Every CAI.

DoctorQ

doesn't "restrict" air flow... it "conditions" air for proper MAF function (using stock tune). I installed the C&L Street CAI back in May... and left the no-tune insert in as well. Why: waiting till I'm closer to warranty expiration... Dealers in CA are definitely not mod-friendly and want to avoid flashing PCM for now. Anyway, when I'm ready to flash a tune, I'll just pull out the insert. I've had ZERO problems (no CELs... no idle issues) and the butt dyno is all smiles . Also noticed it really woke up my Flowmasters... much louder now, especially @ WOT. The way I understand it's function is the insert 'conditions' the airflow for appropriate MAF sensor reading WITHOUT restricting the airflow through the assembly. The Factory intake assembly can only flow 550 CFM... the C&L Street (without insert) pipe flows 1003 CFM... and with the insert in, it flows 885 CFM. So, while the insert conditions the air for appropriate A/F mix readings, the tube is still flowing over 60% more than the stock assembly. Here's the link to C&L and the write-up on the No-Tune solution:

http://www.cnlperformance.com/notune.html

LBJay

Sounds cool but the 4.6L can only draw a theoretical maximum of 488 CFM at 100% VE. In reality it will only flow slightly over 400 CFM at 6000 RPM, stock.

gambi06

First off, nobody is disputing the fact that a CAI will benefit from a tune, but the statement that every one NEEDS a tune, just isn't correct.
The purpose of the insert is to take the MAF housing down from 83mm to the factory size of 80mm, so that the MAF will be happy and function properly without a tune adjustment. People think that the computer has no leeway for adjusting A/F ratio itself, and that's not true. The problem is, when you increase the size of the MAF housing, the sensor can't function properly because the amount of adjustment needed at that point is outside what it can do on it's own. It also thinks that it's seeing less air velocity to the motor (due to increased diameter past the sensor), so it turns down fuel, causing a lean-condition. Now, you fix that problem with an insert in the MAF housing. Now, you are really getting more air due to better flow (since you got rid of that big, ugly black airbox with the two-inch opening), and it's within the MAF's parameters for adjustment on it's own, hence, no-tune required. C&L (the experts) state themselves that this setup will perform nearly identical to their regular setup w/ the 87 octane tune. Spend the $400 you save on a tuner on a ZEX 75 shot, and walk all over everyone if you're that concerned about it!

Seriously, though...this setup still flows miles better than the factory box, w/o the NEED to invest 400 bucks on a tuner. PLUS, down the road, when you DO decide to add headers, heads, TB, etc, you can remove the insert, buy a tuner, and possibly stand a chance against the 2009 Camaro when it arrives.

LBJay

Nope, the C&L insert is smaller (dia) than the factory tube.

gambi06

From C&L:
You will notice that with the "no tune insert" installed in the 83mm MAF housing, maximum airflow drops from 1,003 CFM down to 885 CFM, which is a reduction of about 13% airflow. Since the factory air intake assembly is only capable of flowing 550 CFM, the "Street" intake with the "no tune option" still flows nearly 61% MORE than the stock assembly, which is enough to deliver a nice performance gain.

LBJay

From C&L site
Even when testing an assembly that maintained the EXACT SAME dimensions (both in diameter and sensor depth), we found that the air/fuel ratio would end up in the 14:1 range. This condition will continue to go leaner as you increase the MAF housing diameter. An air/fuel ratio in this range, although not "dangerous", will produce LESS power than an intake assembly that maintains an air/fuel ratio in the 12.9-13.3:1 range, EVEN IF it flows less air (to a certain extent). Once your air/fuel ratio goes numerically higher than 13.4:1 in the upper RPMs at wide open throttle, you will see a drop in horsepower. The chart to the left shows the actual air/fuel ratio from a test of an aftermarket air intake assembly where the mass airflow dimensions are EXACTLY the same as the stock factory assembly.
-----------------------

They don't say what size the insert is but everything on the page says that to keep the A/F ratio optimized at WOT they have to run a smaller than OEM size tube.

Bigger is not always better.

gambi06

I think we are misunderstanding each other. I'm not saying bigger is better, I'm just saying that the CAI with insert (whatever size it is) is still a better flow than the factory setup. If the sleeve IS smaller than stock(which I can't verify until I have one in my hands), it would be to counteract (to an extent) the larger mass of air reaching the MAF from that nice open cone filter, to heep it within parameters the MAF can handle.
I hope that clears up what I am trying to say. If I thought bigger was better, I'd be out buying the C&L racer version. (and a tuner, of course!)
-gambi06

mvon919

I don't see any reason getting CAI without tune... and with that insert, drop-in hi-perf filter would do the same. IMO, stock airbox is lot cleaner look than any CAI.

LBJay

If you have a pump that can pump a maximum of 2 gallons a minute, will putting on an intake hose that flows 3 gallons a minute increase the flow?

Personally I think that 95+% of the HP increase from a CAI on the 4.6 comes from the reduction in intake air temp and the optimization of the A/F ratio.

In fact C&L says that the No-Tune intake will produce the same HP as their tuned version with an 87 octane tune.

I've always wondered too, how many of the "before" tests by CAI manufactures were done with a new clean air filter in the OEM box.

gambi06

You guys make it sound like the insert is like the hydrocarbon trap that Ford put in the early '05s! did you see it? it's here:
http://www.cnlperformance.com/notune.html

Nothing more than a nice shiny pipe about 1/16th of an inch smaller than the already larger aftermarket MAF housing.

The drop in filter STILL has to suck air through the equivalent of a drinking straw in the stock airbox. How many dyno tests, quicker e.t.'s and articles do you guys need to see that the factory airbox can be EASILY improved upon?

gambi06

Unless you are using a CAI with a heatshield, or popping out a headlight, you're not getting much cooler air with an aftermarket CAI than the factory CAI. In fact, if you DON'T use a shield, it's likely you are getting warmer air. Not to mention heatsoak from a metal intake pipe.

Besides, in what school do they teach you that 885 cfm isn't higher than 550?
I guess I really don't see what the arguement is here?

Let's look at it this way. C&L stands to lose a lot by telling people that they don't need a tuner to use their CAI, since they sell them for a pretty penny, so why would they lie, in order to sell LESS of them??

LBJay

In my school they taught me that if an engine can only suck 400 CFM a minute putting on a intake that can flow 1000 CFM won't make any difference in flow. Max CFM is Max CFM, the only thing that changes with a bigger hole is the velocity of the air.

Not saying that a CAI might have a bit less restriction at redline than a stock box, but quoting me bench figures at twice the possible flow of the engine, proves nothing except that you can flow more air through a bigger hole if you suck harder.

LBJay

We are talk about the C&L that comes with a shield as do most all CAI for the S197s, right? The temp data logging threads I seen here show a significant difference in intake/ambient for Stock vs CAI.

gambi06

Well, your theory is correct in that an engine can only handle so much incoming air, but I would like to know where you determined that the 4.6 3V can only handle 400 cfm?

Using that logic, one could say that, there is no reason for each intake runner having a stock flow capability of approx. 250 cfm, if the engine can only "handle" 400 cfm. Then, what? should each port only get 50cfm? I don't think so.

gambi06

Well, the stock airbox is drawing air from the same place as an aftermarket one (a small hole in the fender), and it is in itself a heatshield, (the box itself).

I can see there being a dramatic difference between CAI's that come with / without a shield, however.

LBJay

Air Capacity (cfm): Since an engine is actually little more than an elaborate air pump, it’s ability to perform work—measured in horsepower and torque—is a product of its capacity to inhale and exhale air. An engine’s theoretical air capacity is a product of its rpm and displacement, divided by two (since only half of the engine’s cubic capacity is being displaced during each stroke). For purposes of rating airflow (i.e. via a carburetor), this formula is converted to a quotient reflecting cubic feet per minute (cfm) by dividing both sides of the equation by 1,728, the number of cubic inches in a cubic foot. The reduced formula for cfm: